BBBEE 'has reinforced white supremacy' - Thuli Madonsela on why SA needs to relook at model

SlinkyMike

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In my view, racists who (now) want to prejudice whites hide behind words like "restitution", "redistribution" and "reparations" where they really mean "revenge". This childishly (and amorally) based on a persons' skin colour, regardless of whether they were ever any part of any previous racist regime.

Great way to unite and grow a country. Er, not, as we see with SA and Zim. But Madonsela is just a lawyer, safe in her well paid sinecure, pointing fingers, zero interest in actually doing anything positive like creating a job or two only keen on adding more racist laws.

I suggest SA tries what I understand of the Biko approach; ignore whites (and for me, race completely). Absolute equality, equal and clear rights and co operate; then prosper. Madonsela out of a cosy job.
Are you totally ignorant of her work in trying to bring Jacob Zuma to book as public protector? Seems that way.

Also she isn't "just a lawyer" she's a professor of law. Your facts: get them straight.
 

Bobbin

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Instead of free housing being for 100% black people, it's for the poorest of the poor, look at that, suddenly there are integrated communities.

Oh God no. It's not actually about wealth and helping people, it's about identity politics and votes. Keep up :p
 

SlinkyMike

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I just wanted to ask whether you could clarify the highlighted text?

By whom is the debt due and how should it be paid? Should it be paid at the cost of opportunities based on a person's skin color or based on a societies contributions as a whole? What timeline exists to pay said debt?
Sure. I'll admit that I have grown weary of this discussion but thank you for asking in a sensible tone, I will try to articulate my thoughts - briefly.

The debt is due by society at large. I like the way you have put it "haves" to support and uplift the "have-nots" that's how I see it too. Where we may differ (?) is that I believe that there is a clear delineation between those two sides along racial lines due to the history of our country and so I do not see BBBEE as racist, I see it a as an apt response to the statistical reality of the way that wealth is distributed in this country.

Are there white people struggling to survive below the poverty line? Yes, obviously. No one is denying that, but the fact remains that those numbers are absolutely lopsided, how? Along racial lines due to this history of our country.

Scratching around for a few examples of poor white people yields only a vanishingly small number relative to the suffering of PoC in SA. Roll that up per capita and the percentage is even more stark. (Just to pre-empt the usual fsckery: go look up the numbers yourselves I'm not your appie, you clearly have access to the internet, unlike the vast majority of your African brothers and sisters - how about you use that privilege?)

I definitely don't deny that there's a heavy burden on the "haves" to support and uplift the "have-nots" but at which point, if ever, can we pointedly say some have finished paying for their fathers sins?
Great question and well put. I don't know. I do believe that there should be sunset clause but a time-based one seems sketchy at best. How can we quantify the effects of apartheid and Bantu Education? I don't have an answer, do you?

Insofar as "paying for their fathers sins" I think this is where I come unstuck with many users on this forum. It goes back to the question of how we quantify the impacts of apartheid. I firmly believe that most of the folks who see apartheid as before their time and deny that they enjoy privilege today still are utterly ignorant of the conditions under which the majority of South Africans exist. Like, utterly and completely ignorant.

My father was very active in the struggle so growing up I was given the opportunity to visit places like Crossroads, Gugs, Nyanga, Delft and to spend time with kids my age from those places. He did a lot of work through the church as some churches were havens for activism in those days. So I have always understood the stark differences between our circumstances. Even without having lived it, I can see clearly the absolutely obvious disparity, yes even today. I just cannot get my head around the fact that people can't see how generations of damage has been done and how that still resonates so strongly today. It's just pissy whites complaining about a life of relative luxury, absolutely blind to the true, stark reality - that's why I sometimes raak moerig and then just call everyone bewildered morons. I wish I was better but I am not.

OK, not so brief after all. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
 

Mista_Mobsta

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Sure. I'll admit that I have grown weary of this discussion but thank you for asking in a sensible tone, I will try to articulate my thoughts - briefly.

/snip
Nice one! I like debating with people who can articulate better than I can - helps me to improve the vernacular so to speak. Lots to unpack but before I do, thanks for the decent response! People tend to get so emotionally muddled when it comes to serious matters such as race-talk etc that a decent debate becomes impossible.

All emotions aside, I appreciate your frank views, Now, let's unpack:

The debt is due by society at large. I like the way you have put it "haves" to support and uplift the "have-nots" that's how I see it too. Where we may differ (?) is that I believe that there is a clear delineation between those two sides along racial lines due to the history of our country and so I do not see BBBEE as racist, I see it a as an apt response to the statistical reality of the way that wealth is distributed in this country.
Our constitution clearly distinguishes between FAIR and UNFAIR discrimination and states that no person may be UNFAIRLY discriminated against - not sure how many people are even aware of the distinction. Do I see BBBEE as racist? Yes I do and for the following reasons: 1) It is a fairly BROAD approach to try and resolve the income inequality. It's in the name afterall. 2) There are no scientific/empiric defined definitions on how success/failure of the policy is measured. This ties in well with what you mentioned regarding a sunset clause. 3) There is no specified timeline to judge whether the policy can be deemed fulfilled.

I must admit that I am in no position to judge whether there are better policies at FAIR wealth distribution but the critical failure in BBBEE is the fact that clearly and legally defined definitions do not exist to specify targets and measure success. I would definitely argue that wealth CREATION is far more successful in creating a faster upwards movement in lifestyle.

My biggest gripe with BBBEE is that it is used more as a political tool and private-business influence mechanism than it is used to create wealth movements to those that REALLY need it! BBBEE is also flawed in the sense that any person that meets the definition of RACE/COLOR is able to gain benefit of it, despite their current wealth situation, which in definition would be a success as wealth is distributed from whites to PoC (as per definition), but the real beneficiaries that should benefit are those living at or below the poverty line, irrespective of your skin color? Surely on that we can agree?
 

SlinkyMike

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Nice one! I like debating with people who can articulate better than I can - helps me to improve the vernacular so to speak. Lots to unpack but before I do, thanks for the decent response! People tend to get so emotionally muddled when it comes to serious matters such as race-talk etc that a decent debate becomes impossible.

All emotions aside, I appreciate your frank views, Now, let's unpack:
Same dude. It's hard to find this kind of discussion here - really appreciate it.

Our constitution clearly distinguishes between FAIR and UNFAIR discrimination and states that no person may be UNFAIRLY discriminated against - not sure how many people are even aware of the distinction. Do I see BBBEE as racist? Yes I do and for the following reasons: 1) It is a fairly BROAD approach to try and resolve the income inequality. It's in the name afterall. 2) There are no scientific/empiric defined definitions on how success/failure of the policy is measured. This ties in well with what you mentioned regarding a sunset clause. 3) There is no specified timeline to judge whether the policy can be deemed fulfilled.
Such a strong argument, never viewed it through this lens. What I love is that it isn't snide-smart, it's actually-has-a-focus-on-fixing-the-thing-smart.

We are clearly converging on the 'how do we quantify injustice?' question.

I must admit that I am in no position to judge whether there are better policies at FAIR wealth distribution but the critical failure in BBBEE is the fact that clearly and legally defined definitions do not exist to specify targets and measure success. I would definitely argue that wealth CREATION is far more successful in creating a faster upwards movement in lifestyle.
Agree. There is an almost sinister open-endedness to it and that has definitely been abused.

My biggest gripe with BBBEE is that it is used more as a political tool and private-business influence mechanism than it is used to create wealth movements to those that REALLY need it! BBBEE is also flawed in the sense that any person that meets the definition of RACE/COLOR is able to gain benefit of it, despite their current wealth situation, which in definition would be a success as wealth is distributed from whites to PoC (as per definition), but the real beneficiaries that should benefit are those living at or below the poverty line, irrespective of your skin color? Surely on that we can agree?
Sticking to my guns ito: we need to measure the population statistically and use those insights to drive change, it isn't about black vs white, it is about the numbers, those things are what the numbers show us. The data are clear, but yes we can definitely agree 'in the broader strokes.' I certainly do not assert for instance that white people below the poverty line should not qualify for assistance but I do assert that that is its own thing, it is not a product of apartheid so why are we discussing it in the same conversations? Painful whites that's why. These people should absolutely be considered in terms of how BBBEE impacts them though, over and above the other forms of support that they might require. On that we absolutely agree.

I think that in general the desire to remove race from the conversation is naive and it is also a form of erasure. Get the feeling we might sit vas there though. :)
 

SlinkyMike

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Despite the media putting her on a pedastal, I think she could have done a better job.
Not just the media. We have "the world's most progressive constitution" in SA but what we lack is lawyers who can use it, set precedent and define it. Hone it.
IMO that is the kind of person she is. There is always room for improvement but she is exceptionally accomplished.
 

Benedict A55h0le

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Not just the media. We have "the world's most progressive constitution" in SA but what we lack is lawyers who can use it, set precedent and define it. Hone it.
IMO that is the kind of person she is. There is always room for improvement but she is exceptionally accomplished.
Except for wishing Zuma well and all the best for the future on his birthday, I think this to be very odd, kinda makes me think her whole investigation was typical ANC smoke n mirrors.
 

The Trutherizer

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Diversity may be the spice of life.
But, adversity is its stock.
By and large. If you make things difficult for people, they will get good, and eventually even.
On the flipside. Make things too easy for people, and eventually they become decadent, and weak.
Although the bias of "fairness" is ever shifting, it is luckily self-correcting.
The only thing politicians should concern themselves with in this regard, is the size of the next correction.
 

DA-LION-619

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I certainly do not assert for instance that white people below the poverty line should not qualify for assistance but I do assert that that is its own thing, it is not a product of apartheid so why are we discussing it in the same conversations? Painful whites that's why.
I disagree, if the goal of a system was to separate society, did we really get rid of it or just change the way it discriminates with a new name.
Hence the model needs to be revisited but we also don’t want to create an isolated society based on class either.

To put it simply if I mention incest, the next reply will probably be something about Brakpan.
 

Vrotappel

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Sure. I'll admit that I have grown weary of this discussion but thank you for asking in a sensible tone, I will try to articulate my thoughts - briefly.

The debt is due by society at large. I like the way you have put it "haves" to support and uplift the "have-nots" that's how I see it too. Where we may differ (?) is that I believe that there is a clear delineation between those two sides along racial lines due to the history of our country and so I do not see BBBEE as racist, I see it a as an apt response to the statistical reality of the way that wealth is distributed in this country.

Are there white people struggling to survive below the poverty line? Yes, obviously. No one is denying that, but the fact remains that those numbers are absolutely lopsided, how? Along racial lines due to this history of our country.

Scratching around for a few examples of poor white people yields only a vanishingly small number relative to the suffering of PoC in SA. Roll that up per capita and the percentage is even more stark. (Just to pre-empt the usual fsckery: go look up the numbers yourselves I'm not your appie, you clearly have access to the internet, unlike the vast majority of your African brothers and sisters - how about you use that privilege?)


Great question and well put. I don't know. I do believe that there should be sunset clause but a time-based one seems sketchy at best. How can we quantify the effects of apartheid and Bantu Education? I don't have an answer, do you?

Insofar as "paying for their fathers sins" I think this is where I come unstuck with many users on this forum. It goes back to the question of how we quantify the impacts of apartheid. I firmly believe that most of the folks who see apartheid as before their time and deny that they enjoy privilege today still are utterly ignorant of the conditions under which the majority of South Africans exist. Like, utterly and completely ignorant.

My father was very active in the struggle so growing up I was given the opportunity to visit places like Crossroads, Gugs, Nyanga, Delft and to spend time with kids my age from those places. He did a lot of work through the church as some churches were havens for activism in those days. So I have always understood the stark differences between our circumstances. Even without having lived it, I can see clearly the absolutely obvious disparity, yes even today. I just cannot get my head around the fact that people can't see how generations of damage has been done and how that still resonates so strongly today. It's just pissy whites complaining about a life of relative luxury, absolutely blind to the true, stark reality - that's why I sometimes raak moerig and then just call everyone bewildered morons. I wish I was better but I am not.

OK, not so brief after all. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Fighting racism with racism. Cool. Let's see how that goes for us.
 

netstrider

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The world will be lucky to make 40 years.

Ramaphosa would eat my **** if it meant more protection for his comrades. Dedicated he may be, but not to South African people.

The whole Ace saga is such a facade. ANC trying to sell they are sorting out corruption, ACE taking leave for several months, ACE comes back into some position. Cyril looks good. DA supporters think ****'s happening.

Wake the f**k up!

Nothing will change unless you seize it!
 

supersunbird

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Sure. I'll admit that I have grown weary of this discussion but thank you for asking in a sensible tone, I will try to articulate my thoughts - briefly.

The debt is due by society at large. I like the way you have put it "haves" to support and uplift the "have-nots" that's how I see it too. Where we may differ (?) is that I believe that there is a clear delineation between those two sides along racial lines due to the history of our country and so I do not see BBBEE as racist, I see it a as an apt response to the statistical reality of the way that wealth is distributed in this country.

Are there white people struggling to survive below the poverty line? Yes, obviously. No one is denying that, but the fact remains that those numbers are absolutely lopsided, how? Along racial lines due to this history of our country.

Scratching around for a few examples of poor white people yields only a vanishingly small number relative to the suffering of PoC in SA. Roll that up per capita and the percentage is even more stark. (Just to pre-empt the usual fsckery: go look up the numbers yourselves I'm not your appie, you clearly have access to the internet, unlike the vast majority of your African brothers and sisters - how about you use that privilege?)


Great question and well put. I don't know. I do believe that there should be sunset clause but a time-based one seems sketchy at best. How can we quantify the effects of apartheid and Bantu Education? I don't have an answer, do you?

Insofar as "paying for their fathers sins" I think this is where I come unstuck with many users on this forum. It goes back to the question of how we quantify the impacts of apartheid. I firmly believe that most of the folks who see apartheid as before their time and deny that they enjoy privilege today still are utterly ignorant of the conditions under which the majority of South Africans exist. Like, utterly and completely ignorant.

My father was very active in the struggle so growing up I was given the opportunity to visit places like Crossroads, Gugs, Nyanga, Delft and to spend time with kids my age from those places. He did a lot of work through the church as some churches were havens for activism in those days. So I have always understood the stark differences between our circumstances. Even without having lived it, I can see clearly the absolutely obvious disparity, yes even today. I just cannot get my head around the fact that people can't see how generations of damage has been done and how that still resonates so strongly today. It's just pissy whites complaining about a life of relative luxury, absolutely blind to the true, stark reality - that's why I sometimes raak moerig and then just call everyone bewildered morons. I wish I was better but I am not.

OK, not so brief after all. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

You see, the problem is that many of the have-nots could have been uplifted with the correct policies and wilful and proper implementation of those policies, but it hasn't in the past 27 years. So when will you be calling for the party in charge (and by default all it's members) that period to pay restitution (or whatever you want to call it) for that?

And then there is the question of, are the have-nots not being uplifted by the haves (which by your own admission must be mostly white) through tax?

Here is the social development budget for 2021 (that's just one year, and does not include heath care and such, I wonder what the amount will ad up to over past 27 years) :

1620443045161.png

And then there is the question of if you put your money where your mouth is? Do you just give away your wealth to have-nots? If so, what percentage? Or are you waiting for government to force you?
 

grok

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Wonder what's she's going to say about the ANC doubling down on BEE as announced by Patel, thus reinforcing already reinforced white supremacy to the moon..
 

krycor

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Messages
17,850
The world will be lucky to make 40 years.

Ramaphosa would eat my **** if it meant more protection for his comrades. Dedicated he may be, but not to South African people.

The whole Ace saga is such a facade. ANC trying to sell they are sorting out corruption, ACE taking leave for several months, ACE comes back into some position. Cyril looks good. DA supporters think ****'s happening.

Wake the f**k up!

Nothing will change unless you seize it!

So you believe he is innocent or court case flawed?
 

krycor

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Messages
17,850
Fighting racism with racism. Cool. Let's see how that goes for us.

Please enlighten us how you would fix a system where a racist favored population which has >95% of all wealth in country goes to a democracy and results in equitable distribution within 1/2 if not a 1/4 of a lifetime.

Please let tell us. I’d bet it all on the fact that it will fail.. because at the end of the day, short of a civil war.. globally there has never been a transformation strategy that worked except where there was massive wealth redistribution either voluntary or involuntary.

SA took the least painful for minority route and corrupt abused it much like every system, law or policy in SA.

But yah.. todate it’s always these farcical pipe dream transformation ideas are bandied about by the right which changes nothing. That’s the brutal truth.

Ps. The current gov system, capitalistic system and push into globalism was heavily debated in the 90s and it was mentioned that it was easily abused. So it’s not a surprise to anyone older than 35 unless you epically dumb. But again.. show me a way you get that ratio of wealth in economy fixed.

I think best was would have been debt driven or short brutal civil war.. yes that latter would have decimated most of this forum but hey we wouldn’t have the racism anymore.
 

Vrotappel

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Feb 22, 2005
Messages
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Please enlighten us how you would fix a system where a racist favored population which has >95% of all wealth in country goes to a democracy and results in equitable distribution within 1/2 if not a 1/4 of a lifetime.

Please let tell us. I’d bet it all on the fact that it will fail.. because at the end of the day, short of a civil war.. globally there has never been a transformation strategy that worked except where there was massive wealth redistribution either voluntary or involuntary.

SA took the least painful for minority route and corrupt abused it much like every system, law or policy in SA.

But yah.. todate it’s always these farcical pipe dream transformation ideas are bandied about by the right which changes nothing. That’s the brutal truth.

Ps. The current gov system, capitalistic system and push into globalism was heavily debated in the 90s and it was mentioned that it was easily abused. So it’s not a surprise to anyone older than 35 unless you epically dumb. But again.. show me a way you get that ratio of wealth in economy fixed.

I think best was would have been debt driven or short brutal civil war.. yes that latter would have decimated most of this forum but hey we wouldn’t have the racism anymore.
Upliftment not redistribution.
 
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