BBBEE 'has reinforced white supremacy' - Thuli Madonsela on why SA needs to relook at model

Spizz

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Please enlighten us how you would fix a system where a racist favored population which has >95% of all wealth in country goes to a democracy and results in equitable distribution within 1/2 if not a 1/4 of a lifetime.

Rather than lining the pockets of a few connected black people you mean? Well I would have pumped absolutely every cent and energy into education. From state schools to accessible tertiary education for everyone. No fees for most through family means testing, grants for the poor and low cost interest top up loans for everyone.

The middle class would be booming now.
 

Fulcrum29

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13 pages and the Op article is behind a paywall. Have we been arguing the headline all this while? :unsure:

Personally I believe that Mandonsela has taken the stance that BEE hasn't delivered on its mandate and that in its current shape it has done more damage than good in terms with restitutive measures, Jacaranda gave a direct quote,


Madonsela delivered the keynote address at the annual Nadine Gordimer Lecture on Wednesday.

The lecture was hosted by Wits University and the friends of Nadine Gordimer Committee.

Madonsela told guests gathered virtually that the policy, which seeks to redress the injustices of apartheid, has done very little for its intended beneficiaries.

“I don’t think BEE was the right thing, I think BEE was a lost cause.

“BEE is corrosive to both black and white small businesses,” she said.

Madonsela added the policy further disenfranchises black people.

“I’m not saying there shouldn’t be remedial measures, I’m not saying there shouldn’t be restitutive measures; I’m saying the model must be based on what kind of society are you creating.

“In fact, if anything I think it has reinforced white supremacy; instead of undermining it.”

We have seen selective snips made by the media as with UCT's Lwazi Lushaba without establishin the context within which it was said.

Mandonsela ReTweeted this article on the 6th,


and I believe it is a better portrayal, and reading that article she should also agree with Patel's recent statements addressing the shortcomings in the process hence a new guideline is to be established.
 

rietrot

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She needs to make up her mind.

A while back she said some stupid commie identity politics talking point, probably influenced by one of her kids?

Now she is far right again.

O nevermind. Clickbait nonsense title to the thread. She still wants restitutive action.
 

DA-LION-619

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13 pages and the Op article is behind a paywall. Have we been arguing the headline all this while? :unsure:
 

R13...

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I wanted more context to the white supremacy thing in the OP. This entire thread's outrage related to that statement and it looks like the headline was selected to drive that outrage.
 

abzob

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I wanted more context to the white supremacy thing in the OP. This entire thread's outrage related to that statement and it looks like the headline was selected to drive that outrage.

But BEE has reinforced white supremacy. We see it right here with statements like “they’re not good enough so need laws to protect them against a minority” etc
BEE has made even the most average white South African feel superior.
 

Fulcrum29

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But BEE has reinforced white supremacy. We see it right here with statements like “they’re not good enough so need laws to protect them against a minority” etc
BEE has made even the most average white South African feel superior.

Thuli addressed the Marikana Massacre some time ago, and she mentioned BEE,

Another problem with where we are is that we abandoned the Equality Act, the promotional part, the advancing equality part of the Equality Act. We abandoned it and went for BEE, and who benefited from BEE? Those who could pick up the low lying fruits, and here we are, 26 years into democracy, and Marikana happened 18 years into democracy. It wasn’t just the conditions at that company, which conditions were deplorable of course, but it was the ecosystem as a whole. It wasn’t remembering, it wasn’t healing, it wasn’t renewing. So we need to be impact conscious.

it is a societal issue as she pointed out which she also pointed out in the lecture people are going on about in this thread,

Madonsela added the policy further disenfranchises black people.

“I’m not saying there shouldn’t be remedial measures, I’m not saying there shouldn’t be restitutive measures; I’m saying the model must be based on what kind of society are you creating.

and as per the article she shared on the 6th,

“Reasons cited for the slow pace of black ownership include lack of funding of ownership deals, lack of specialised skills to contribute meaningfully in an organisation’s operations, mismatch between company owners and black shareholders, corruption in the form of fronting, lack of strategic leadership, and a tick-box approach.”

For ownership to be meaningful, black owners needed to be directly involved in core operations, have voting rights and be part of decision-making bodies, the report suggested.

so is BEE inclusive or isn't blacks 'involved' in the process?

This is actually why the Flow-Through Principle is applied. Examples are herein,


I can see why Thuli made this statement,

“In fact, if anything I think it has reinforced white supremacy; instead of undermining it.”

because BEE isn't positively contributing to society. She supports empowerment, but not BEE in its current version. As I also said, she would support Patel's latest "Next-Frontier", to quote,


In his address, Patel drew specific attention to the amendment to section 12(3) of the Competition Act 89 which came into effect in July 2019.

The section requires competition authorities to assess whether any proposed merger with an effect in South Africa will promote a greater spread of ownership, in particular to increase the level of ownership by historically disadvantaged persons and workers in firms in the market.
  • The Department of Trade, Industry and Competition (DTIC) has established a register of companies which put worker empowerment structures in place, to facilitate evaluation and tracking of both listed and unlisted companies;
  • The department’s integrated performance plan includes a transformation element that will ensure that incentives are strongly aligned to developing worker ownership structures and maximising South Africa’s investment in industrial development;
  • Discussions are already being held in the National Economic Development and Labour Council (Nedlac) to review the Companies Act 71 of 2008, in order to allow for even greater worker representation on boards of directors, building on the successful experience of countries like Germany. Government will publish a framework and provide a more detailed briefing in due course;
  • The Minister intends to publish new guidelines in the form of a practice note on broad-based ownership schemes, long term ownership and evergreen structures to complement the existing Broad-based Black Economic Empowerment (BBEEE) legislation, and provide more clarity in order to promote worker empowerment as part of the owner element of the B-BEEE scorecard.

because it is purposed to contribute more positively to society, allowing black people to be more involved in the processes and mergers.

Do I agree with BEE, not as long as it is maintained as exclusive access to the market. The new ICASA regulation and the EE Amendment bill is a radical departure and it doesn't promote equality, but that is where we are steering towards and sectors have long and incrementally being targeted. This is why we have BIS today.

Reconciliation within equality has long been removed, and that is how I see it. For me it has nothing to do with who, racially, is being better since it is an individual evaluation, but having equal access to market activities, however, big business have told that I am wrong.
 

DA-LION-619

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Do I agree with BEE, not as long as it is maintained as exclusive access to the market. The new ICASA regulation and the EE Amendment bill is a radical departure and it doesn't promote equality, but that is where we are steering towards and sectors have long and incrementally being targeted. This is why we have BIS today.
Which is why that model needs to be revisited, it seems like anything and everything is being thrown at it to see what sticks.
Going along racial lines just leads to fronting. Previously disadvantaged vs currently disadvantaged, the difference is you know when the objective is met.

Reconciliation within equality has long been removed, and that is how I see it. For me it has nothing to do with who, racially, is being better since it is an individual evaluation, but having equal access to market activities, however, big business have told that I am wrong.
That’s the other point she made in OP interview, it’s killing small/family businesses because big business can cover the overhead to meet whatever the requirement is.
You don’t ever see big business complain about new policies because they know it means less competition.
 

RonSwanson

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But BEE has reinforced white supremacy. We see it right here with statements like “they’re not good enough so need laws to protect them against a minority” etc
BEE has made even the most average black South African feel inferior.
FTFY
 

grok

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Sniveling about socialism....hahaha. You're even more stupid than Slinky.

People a 1 000 times more intelligent than both of you, did years of studies and wrote papers and articles on the matter...but the 2 of YOU are correct and they are wrong.

Who's the actual joke, hey?

Muppets like you that think posting a LoL is an actual and effective counter argument.
Lol
 

Oldfut

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Are you totally ignorant of her work in trying to bring Jacob Zuma to book as public protector? Seems that way.

Also she isn't "just a lawyer" she's a professor of law. Your facts: get them straight.

Slinky; I'm wrong, she actually created quite a few "jobs" in the R1bn Zondo Commission; and counting; jobs that should have been done by SAPS and the NPA (ha ha). She may well be a "law professor" but seriously, anyone who believes race based legislation along with retribution punishment by race is a good thing is no better than any apartheid defender (or any defender of any race based discrimination). Apartheid should have taught SA that.

My view is ridiculously simple and, I believe, has led many nations to prosperity. Absolute equality in all spheres, property rights, minimal "government", co operation, unity and pursuit of excellence. SA is failing on all of these. Practically, stripping whitey of everything they own and their jobs will not fix SA; Zim (and Venezuela) should have taught us that. But carry on.

SA after apartheid was like a car in reasonable shape with only one tyre inflated and in good condition. The ANC policy was to deflate that tyre, sell off good parts, buy other inferior ones that didn't fit at inflated prices, re-finance the car, never do any maintenance and let any one of their friends and family drive or use the car, licenced or not. SA's situation now with the car clapped out (rising unemployment and debt, falling per capita GDP) has nothing to do with whites.

Rant for the day over.
 

Mista_Mobsta

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/snip

Sticking to my guns ito: we need to measure the population statistically and use those insights to drive change, it isn't about black vs white, it is about the numbers, those things are what the numbers show us. The data are clear, but yes we can definitely agree 'in the broader strokes.' I certainly do not assert for instance that white people below the poverty line should not qualify for assistance but I do assert that that is its own thing, it is not a product of apartheid so why are we discussing it in the same conversations? Painful whites that's why. These people should absolutely be considered in terms of how BBBEE impacts them though, over and above the other forms of support that they might require. On that we absolutely agree.

I think that in general the desire to remove race from the conversation is naive and it is also a form of erasure. Get the feeling we might sit vas there though. :)
Mothersday weekend over and done with, let's get back to business!

I am always open and willing to have my mind changed when it comes to pertinent issues such as race and income equality etc - I do believe there are many out there that take the Ostrich approach to debates and difficult topics...head meet sand! What is a mind if we can't change it right?

So, here we go:
This conversation is about BBEEE and whether or not we can consider it an effective policy at income redistribution. I am sure we can agree the short answer is a resounding no. I am sure there have been some successful BBEEE deals via share restructuring and SPV's etc but overall I would argue that current BBEEE policies and clauses, especially when wanting to deal with government via tenders, creates more red tape, more bureaucracy and more avenues for inefficiencies than without.

There is no doubt in my mind that restitution is an ongoing process and that it is sorely needed in South Africa but here's the rub about race based policies to combat income inequalities: It creates social division. It creates an atmosphere where improving race relations is hindered as the other race could be used as a scapegoat for everything going "wrong" in the country. EFF, BLM, ANC, DA etc have all shown their tendencies to use this kak as a political ploy.

That being said, let's talk about solutions. LSM categories would be the first change I would make for a person to enjoy BBEEE status. The interesting thing about LSM targeting is that statically, PoC would automatically benefit more as they are in the majority of lower LSM ranked as it stands. Another solution could be tax rebates for directly employing someone in a certain LSM category - domestics/gardeners/nannies etc would all greatly benefit from this if the rebate is structured correctly. Imagine if the "haves" would have a tax rebate to employ domestics and gardeners as they are paid with AFTER TAX funds. At least the taxpayer would be able to have some control of how their taxes are spent right?

I agree that a removal of race from the conversation is a step backwards but we also have to be aware of how racial policies have the potential to divide instead of unite. Lastly I just want to address the below:
I certainly do not assert for instance that white people below the poverty line should not qualify for assistance but I do assert that that is its own thing, it is not a product of apartheid so why are we discussing it in the same conversations? Painful whites that's why.
We have some institutions that cater more for a specific culture as mentioned above (Afriforum/Solidariteit etc) and look how they are labeled? Exactly the same manner in which BBEEE is labeled - racist. This, at least in my humble opinion, is why I say we should tread carefully when it comes to race-based policies/institutions. The viewpoint of one person is almost never the same as of another.
 

Brontosaurus

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Your question is dof and you are looking for an argument, I have enough of those already. But you finally did get the hint so, bravo?

How is my question "dof"? You said reparations needed to be paid; don't make a blanket statement and not back it up when asked.

Don't be a hypocrite now; answer the question.

EDIT: And yes, I am absolutely baiting you into an argument. There's no pretense there. Feel free to ignore me, but then don't get all uppity when others aren't baited into your arguments.
 
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Benedict A55h0le

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How is my question "dof"? You said reparations needed to be paid; don't make a blanket statement and not back it up when asked.

Don't be a hypocrite now; answer the question.

EDIT: And yes, I am absolutely baiting you into an argument. There's no pretense there. Feel free to ignore me, but then don't get all uppity when others aren't baited into your arguments.
In order for the reparations to be perpetual, this question will not be answered ever. Slavery and Apartheid will forever be the justification of the oppression and enslavement of whites in the new global black utopia.
 

ponder

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13 pages and the Op article is behind a paywall. Have we been arguing the headline all this while? :unsure:

News24 does that, the whole article is open & readable and the next moment they paywall it.

It's happened twice to me where I posted news24 articles and later get kukked on for posting paywalled articles, same has happened to other people.

So don't blame the OP, the article was open and readable when it was posted.
 

SlinkyMike

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How is my question "dof"? You said reparations needed to be paid; don't make a blanket statement and not back it up when asked.
It's dof because it's been answered several times already. You're just looking for attention because you can see all your mates here in the pile-on and it's giving you FOMO.

Don't be a hypocrite now; answer the question.
Yea, that won't work either.

EDIT: And yes, I am absolutely baiting you into an argument.
I know that's why I said it... (Sharp as a marble this one.)

There's no pretense there. Feel free to ignore me, but then don't get all uppity when others aren't baited into your arguments.
Oh I'll engage but only to mock you and only on my terms. Been a step ahead of you the whole way and I still am. See stupid people can't but operate as if everyone else is a stupid as what they are, which is the classical error that you are currently making.

images (1).jpeg
 

Brontosaurus

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It's dof because it's been answered several times already. You're just looking for attention because you can see all your mates here in the pile-on and it's giving you FOMO.


Yea, that won't work either.


I know that's why I said it... (Sharp as a marble this one.)


Oh I'll engage but only to mock you and only on my terms. Been a step ahead of you the whole way and I still am. See stupid people can't but operate as if everyone else is a stupid as what they are, which is the classical error that you are currently making.

View attachment 1065735

So answer the question. You made a statement and refuse to follow up with explanations; you sound like a Republican.

I haven't seen it answered anywhere else here, otherwise I would've commented.

You're just a hypocrite, on a morally broken high horse.
 

SlinkyMike

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Sniveling about socialism....hahaha. You're even more stupid than Slinky.

People a 1 000 times more intelligent than both of you, did years of studies and wrote papers and articles on the matter...but the 2 of YOU are correct and they are wrong.

Who's the actual joke, hey?

Muppets like you that think posting a LoL is an actual and effective counter argument.
...or, you know, no text at all just an ancient gif that everyone is bored of already hey @MightyQuin? I mean, no one would be lame enough to do that all the time hey? :rolleyes:
 
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