BBBEE 'has reinforced white supremacy' - Thuli Madonsela on why SA needs to relook at model

konfab

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You are not following this discussion, like, at all. We are done.
The funny part is I know exactly the strategy that you are regurgitating here. I just recognize it.

You said:
Such a blinkered outlook. It's all black v white, white v black... looks at the system that results in these outcomes, shouldn't we be talking about changing that? Remove the fence not the peoples legs.

This is a motte and baily tactic you are doing in full force.

You are taking the easily defendable position that we both likely agree upon (that poverty in South Africa predominantly affects black South Africans, and that reducing said poverty is of the highest importance), and using it to justify tearing down the "system" that you claim is producing these discrepancies. Even when the system that you so want to tear down is the system that would reduce the problem.

That system just "happens" to be free-market capitalism and the concept of meritocracy. Which brave activists like yourself conveniently want to get rid of.

Thuli Madonsela does exactly the same thing when she, who has never run or started a business in her life, claims that capitalism needs to be rethought.
Madonsela called for the need for “rethinking capitalism” because income, which is now denied to millions of people, “is the basis for every other human right”.
https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/art...ics-unite-to-call-for-basic-income-guarantee/


You are pretty much a lost cause on this, when you defend and justify the very worst of bigoted behaviour (requiring that skin colour be relevant in judging someone to be suitable for the job).

If anyone else want to understand how individuals like SlinkyMike and Madonsela come to their twisted points of view, I recommend reading this essay by James Lindsey:

https://newdiscourses.com/2020/03/critical-theories-virus-liberal-body-politic/
 

rietrot

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The funny part is I know exactly the strategy that you are regurgitating here. I just recognize it.

You said:


This is a motte and baily tactic you are doing in full force.

You are taking the easily defendable position that we both likely agree upon (that poverty in South Africa predominantly affects black South Africans, and that reducing said poverty is of the highest importance), and using it to justify tearing down the "system" that you claim is producing these discrepancies. Even when the system that you so want to tear down is the system that would reduce the problem.

That system just "happens" to be free-market capitalism and the concept of meritocracy. Which brave activists like yourself conveniently want to get rid of.

Thuli Madonsela does exactly the same thing when she, who has never run or started a business in her life, claims that capitalism needs to be rethought.

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/art...ics-unite-to-call-for-basic-income-guarantee/


You are pretty much a lost cause on this, when you defend and justify the very worst of bigoted behaviour (requiring that skin colour be relevant in judging someone to be suitable for the job).

If anyone else want to understand how individuals like SlinkyMike and Madonsela come to their twisted points of view, I recommend reading this essay by James Lindsey:

https://newdiscourses.com/2020/03/critical-theories-virus-liberal-body-politic/
And this is not new. People did rethink capitalism. They came up with communism. Million died.

The virus metaphor is good. But it is also not new the communist has used this tactic for decades.

It is so effective because normal people act in good faith when they engage with someone. You can't really do that with an dishonest person.
 
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SlinkyMike

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The funny part is I know exactly the strategy that you are regurgitating here. I just recognize it.

You said:


This is a motte and baily tactic you are doing in full force.
We are not in a formal debate right now. I am not trying to win points from a panel while attempting prove the existence of gods. We are simply discussing the news so I really can't make sense of what you are trying to prove by quoting logical fallacies.

You are taking the easily defendable position that we both likely agree upon (that poverty in South Africa predominantly affects black South Africans, and that reducing said poverty is of the highest importance), and using it to justify tearing down the "system" that you claim is producing these discrepancies.
Capitalism and its ugly cousin colonialism are absolutely the root cause of these issues. What else should we focus on to fix a thing? We are definitely talking past each other if you cannot see that the system is responsible for causing and perpetuating poverty and wealth disparity at the levels that we currently see them.

Even when the system that you so want to tear down is the system that would reduce the problem.
*Created the problem.

That system just "happens" to be free-market capitalism and the concept of meritocracy. Which brave activists like yourself conveniently want to get rid of.
Capitalism doesn't "just happen" to be in place - it is the system of the Western world. Downplaying its importance in creating these circumstances is so dishonest that it basically breaks your whole argument. You should spend more time thinking about what you are saying and less time reading up on fallacies on wikipedia.

Also: fsck meritocracy. This is the real world, the Ron Swanson character is satire not a role model you absolute frikking goons.

Thuli Madonsela does exactly the same thing when she, who has never run or started a business in her life, claims that capitalism needs to be rethought.

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/art...ics-unite-to-call-for-basic-income-guarantee/
LOL, ok buddy.

I don't really know what to say when you insist that you, a random on the internet, are the arbiter of who can comment on capitalism and who cannot, and that a fsking professor of law who you happen to disagree with falls foul of this arbitration... it's just so absurd that frankly I can't even.

Just FYI: I have started and run businesses. I agree with Prof Madonsela. Have you actually satisfied your own random conditions I wonder?

You are pretty much a lost cause on this, when you defend and justify the very worst of bigoted behaviour (requiring that skin colour be relevant in judging someone to be suitable for the job).
Your fragility only allows you to see your own side. You see an attack on whiteness not a boost to those historically persecuted. You don't see a black person being given an opportunity where they were not allowed one before, you only see a white person being judged as "unsuitable".
I have never heard that a white person is "unsuitable" under BBBEE but only that a PoC be given an opportunity in order to grow the middle class (that should be language that your capitalism-loving ass can understand so what gives actually?) ...it's not about white people being judged as 'less-than' it never has been, rather it is about opportunity being shared more equitably by way of a kind of 'catch up'. Nuance. It's a thing.

If anyone else want to understand how individuals like SlinkyMike and Madonsela come to their twisted points of view, I recommend reading this essay by James Lindsey:

https://newdiscourses.com/2020/03/critical-theories-virus-liberal-body-politic/
...out of interest is there any form of progress that you and James Lindsay don't have a hate-boner for?
 

Benedict A55h0le

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Capitalism and its ugly cousin colonialism are absolutely the root cause of these issues. What else should we focus on to fix a thing? We are definitely talking past each other if you cannot see that the system is responsible for causing and perpetuating poverty and wealth disparity at the levels that we currently see them.
So what you are suggesting is that we fix things by going back to the tribal systems and give up the use of the wheel and all other colonial things. Poverty was firmly in place before colonialism, you just like to feed on leftist nonsense to justify madness. The truth is that yes capitalism sucks but it sucks a lot less than communism, so you think the solution is to give up something that sucks for something that sucks a lot more. This is actually just plain racism, all that is white is bad and must be abolished. Let me see you give up your colonial luxuries and then we can talk again hypocrite.
 

rambo919

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Another common mott and bailey attack is equating corporatism to capitalism..... the former might be built on the latter but they are hardly the same.

I would be perfectly fine with getting rid of corporations as they currently function and replacing them with something else..... in theory. One must remember that corporations became what they are because trusts were such a problem and were delt with in a certain hard fashion, conspiracy to hoard resources will always rear it's ugly head no matter what you do to the economic system..... the party leadership in soviet russia never ran out of caviar.
 

LCBXX

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Another argument which cleverly avoids the ANCs failure to uplift the Black Majority by blaming white people.
 

konfab

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Capitalism and its ugly cousin colonialism are absolutely the root cause of these issues. What else should we focus on to fix a thing? We are definitely talking past each other if you cannot see that the system is responsible for causing and perpetuating poverty and wealth disparity at the levels that we currently see them.
Capitalism is the only system in human history that reduces poverty. The evidence for this is overwhelming.

China successfully expunged capitalism from its economy when the communists took over. They had such poverty that 60 million people died of starvation. You tend to see this in places without capitalism in some form or another. Then when they started allowing some people to **gasp** profit off their own labour and property, the amount of poverty in their country was dramatically reduced. So much so that you can see it reflected on the global levels of poverty reduction.

Chelsea-New-02-1-790x350.png





I have never heard that a white person is "unsuitable" under BBBEE but only that a PoC be given an opportunity in order to grow the middle class (that should be language that your capitalism-loving ass can understand so what gives actually?) ...it's not about white people being judged as 'less-than' it never has been, rather it is about opportunity being shared more equitably by way of a kind of 'catch up'. Nuance. It's a thing.
That is literally what happens.

It happened to my wife. HR manager phoned her and told her that she was the most qualified and suitable person for the job, but because the company's BEE rating was low, the job had to go to another candidate who was less qualified for the position.

Economies (and the middle class) cannot grow by taking stuff away from one group of people and giving it to another. They only grow when people interact voluntarily. Of course, this concept is foreign to those who are deluded into thinkin that economic transactions can only ever be zero-sum games.

...out of interest is there any form of progress that you and James Lindsay don't have a hate-boner for?
Advancement of individual rights for everyone, which creates a free market economy. Which actually gets rid of the poverty problem unlike your beloved communism.

Minimum wage violates people's right to work, as if they are someone who doesn't have much skills, all their employment prospects are made illegal by minimum wage.


The only places in the world where poverty is increasing, not decreasing are those countries that stifle economic freedom with regulation, minimum wages etc. These are all, unfortunately, in Africa.
 

SlinkyMike

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Capitalism is the only system in human history that reduces poverty. The evidence for this is overwhelming.
Yea, in history. Are you saying we should never strive for better and only accept what we have? Regressive much?

China successfully expunged capitalism from its economy when the communists took over. They had such poverty that 60 million people died of starvation. You tend to see this in places without capitalism in some form or another. Then when they started allowing some people to **gasp** profit off their own labour and property, the amount of poverty in their country was dramatically reduced. So much so that you can see it reflected on the global levels of poverty reduction.

Chelsea-New-02-1-790x350.png
Didn't argue for communism not sure why you have brought it up.

That is literally what happens.

It happened to my wife. HR manager phoned her and told her that she was the most qualified and suitable person for the job, but because the company's BEE rating was low, the job had to go to another candidate who was less qualified for the position.
Literally told her she was suitable, how does that equal telling her she is unsuitable?
This is literally what I was saying. BBBEE does not assert that white people are "unsuitable", it asserts that the opportunities be balanced against historical persecution.
You are fragile af buddy. Obsessed with being oppressed. Too much of IDW websites for you methinks.

Economies (and the middle class) cannot grow by taking stuff away from one group of people and giving it to another. They only grow when people interact voluntarily. Of course, this concept is foreign to those who are deluded into thinkin that economic transactions can only ever be zero-sum games.
Capitalism is a zero-sum game. THE zero-sum game. (cue: Milton Friedman and the "fixed-pie" bs).
So you agree then that we should look at that system in order to fight injustice? Not sure I understand?

Advancement of individual rights for everyone, which creates a free market economy. Which actually gets rid of the poverty problem unlike your beloved communism.
Never argued for communism. Again, you only see what you want to see, what the IDW wants you to see.

Minimum wage violates people's right to work, as if they are someone who doesn't have much skills, all their employment prospects are made illegal by minimum wage.
You love logical fallacies, how about: non sequitur? I think you got lost ranting about libertarian-ish stuff and you just kept going but then you walked directly up your own arse.

The only places in the world where poverty is increasing, not decreasing are those countries that stifle economic freedom with regulation, minimum wages etc. These are all, unfortunately, in Africa.
You are advocating for the feudalism. Hint: it was not fun.
 

Benedict A55h0le

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Yea, in history. Are you saying we should never strive for better and only accept what we have? Regressive much?


Didn't argue for communism not sure why you have brought it up.


Literally told her she was suitable, how does that equal telling her she is unsuitable?
This is literally what I was saying. BBBEE does not assert that white people are "unsuitable", it asserts that the opportunities be balanced against historical persecution.
You are fragile af buddy. Obsessed with being oppressed. Too much of IDW websites for you methinks.


Capitalism is a zero-sum game. THE zero-sum game. (cue: Milton Friedman and the "fixed-pie" bs).
So you agree then that we should look at that system in order to fight injustice? Not sure I understand?


Never argued for communism. Again, you only see what you want to see, what the IDW wants you to see.


You love logical fallacies, how about: non sequitur? I think you got lost ranting about libertarian-ish stuff and you just kept going but then you walked directly up your own arse.


You are advocating for the feudalism. Hint: it was not fun.
Lots of blabbering here, so what is your great suggestion to replace capitalism? It is easy for lefties to moan but they never come up with a viable alternative, because there is none. History has proven that capitalism is the best system, and here you are saying it should be abolished, but you are completely unable to suggest something that can work better.
 

Gyre

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Lots of blabbering here, so what is your great suggestion to replace capitalism? It is easy for lefties to moan but they never come up with a viable alternative, because there is none. History has proven that capitalism is the best system, and here you are saying it should be abolished, but you are completely unable to suggest something that can work better.

Much like I asked you for an alternative to BEE and you slunk away not only once, but twice? Yet you are now here demanding someone else offer you alternatives? :p

I however do agree that capitalism is the best system, but capitalism ALONE isn't the solution. There are systems that can be implemented alongside capitalism to maintain the economy while ensuring fairness to people.
 

rambo919

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Capitalism is not a political system.... it's efficient economics.... you cannot use economics to solve political problems.
 

Gyre

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Capitalism is not a political system.... it's efficient economics.... you cannot use economics to solve political problems.

You can do anything if it gets you votes. Money gets votes.
 

konfab

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Lobbyists...
... are a political problem created by people who think the state should have the power to regulate the private sector.

For example:

Take something that is almost completely unregulated, like software development. A person indoctrinated by critical theories would go look at it, see that Python is overwhelmingly used by white programmers, whilst Java is used by black programmers, conclude that the python language is therefore racist and therefore the state must regulate exactly who is allowed to use and download python for their work and who is not. You know because apartheid and colonialism.

Then what happens is that a corporation that wants to destroy its competitors, will look at this regulation, see that their competitors use python, whilst they are based on Java, and fund lobbyists to make sure the legislation doesn't affect them. And they will do so by informing useful idiots that its competitors are being racist for using python which has now been equated to colonialism and slavery for its harmful effects on black people.
 

konfab

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Much like I asked you for an alternative to BEE and you slunk away not only once, but twice? Yet you are now here demanding someone else offer you alternatives? :p

I however do agree that capitalism is the best system, but capitalism ALONE isn't the solution. There are systems that can be implemented alongside capitalism to maintain the economy while ensuring fairness to people.
Individual rights and localism solve that problem.
 

KSM93

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So what you are suggesting is that we fix things by going back to the tribal systems and give up the use of the wheel and all other colonial things. Poverty was firmly in place before colonialism, you just like to feed on leftist nonsense to justify madness. The truth is that yes capitalism sucks but it sucks a lot less than communism, so you think the solution is to give up something that sucks for something that sucks a lot more. This is actually just plain racism, all that is white is bad and must be abolished. Let me see you give up your colonial luxuries and then we can talk again hypocrite.
No it wasn't. Britain introduced the hut tax to force black Africans to work in the mines as cheap labor, as they wouldn't pay a fair wage and imported coolies to SA. that was the reason for the Bambatha Rebellion
 
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