BBBEE 'has reinforced white supremacy' - Thuli Madonsela on why SA needs to relook at model

konfab

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You're wrong, we don't need equality we need equity.
images

equity-in-theory-vs-equity-in-reality-everyone-got-their-legs-cut-off.jpg


BEE is an equity based theory, pity reality paints a different picture.
 

Lupus

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Disagree. The damage done over 50 years of apartheid cannot be undone with a referendum.

Agree strongly. Nothing to add.


The problem with this cartoon is that it plays on the idea that some members of society are inherently less capable. The shorter figures in this drawing are not shorter due to oppression from the taller ones (as they are in our society here in SA) they are represented as innately less than the taller figures which is inaccurate in the context of our discussion and in fact the very thing that Thuli Madonsela is discussing wrt to BBBEE reinforcing white supremacy, as per the article.
No the problem is that everyone thinks of equality like the equity picture but ultimately it will end up like the first one.
Everyone is on the same playing field, you need to make it or break it. If you break it you can't cry for equality.
Also it was 48 years and the ANC has had over half of that time to fix the issues but they haven't, instead looting and pillaging is their go to.
 

prOd

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We really need to get off this racism carousel. Reparations are not racist, they are reparations ffs just get it round your heads. Schit is fscking cringe.

Who gets to decide when enough reparations have been paid...when enough laws benefiting only people of certain race have been made?
 

netstrider

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Get rid of most of the red tape so local businesses can thrive and foreign investments come in. Get education sorted and the demographics in the workplace will sort themselves out.
 

Lupus

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Get rid of most of the red tape so local businesses can thrive and foreign investments come in. Get education sorted and the demographics in the workplace will sort themselves out.
Logic, but that's not how the ANC work they want the masses stupid so they can keep on looting.
 

Solarion

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When any democratic country has put laws in place which discriminate against a tiny ethnic minority from participating in the economy as freely as an overwhelming majority, then you have to ask two questions:

1. What is so special about this tiny minority that they need to be handicapped in order to compete fairly?
2. What is wrong with the majority that they are unable to compete with the tiny minority?

These are questions I have personally been asked from people overseas when talking about BEE. They look at the numbers and it doesn't add up since Affirmative Action has always historically been imposed on the majority in order for the minority to have equal opportunities. You literally get this look of confusion.
 

Ragnarök

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BEE might have worked , but really only handful of blacks benefited ( and they did eat well)
 

SlinkyMike

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View attachment 1063647


BEE is an equity based theory, pity reality paints a different picture.
Why is it that you default to the idea that maiming the people is the only way to solve this instead of chopping down the fence? Seems pretty dof oke.

No the problem is that everyone thinks of equality like the equity picture but ultimately it will end up like the first one.
Everyone is on the same playing field, you need to make it or break it. If you break it you can't cry for equality.
Everyone is not on the same playing field. Reconsider the first image in your cartoon but instead of each individual being different sizes, they are the same height - each standing on successively lower gradients.

When you remove the toxic idea that some people are inherently less than others it becomes clear that the solution is to level that gradient or better yet: remove the fence (capitalism).

Also it was 48 years and the ANC has had over half of that time to fix the issues
1948-1994 is actually 46 years but I'm ok with rounding up if you are? How do you figure that half the time is enough to fix double the problem though? I'm being massively reductive but I'm just trying to understand the logic...

but they haven't, instead looting and pillaging is their go to.
Again: agree strongly. It is an absolute disgrace... I struggle to find the adjective to suitably describe it.

Who gets to decide when enough reparations have been paid...when enough laws benefiting only people of certain race have been made?
Good question for which there isn't a good answer, at least not one that I have heard.
 

Neuk_

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We really need to get off this racism carousel. Reparations are not racist, they are reparations ffs just get it round your heads. Schit is fscking cringe.

Could you please clarify how policies that discriminate against someone based on their race, are not racist...
 

SlinkyMike

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Could you please clarify how policies that discriminate against someone based on their race, are not racist...
...when they are reparations for past injustice. Thought that was pretty clear. Actually, it is abundantly clear unless you are blinded by a victim complex.

Please just drop it if you are not able to think and discuss. You can lead a horse to water but kneeling there flicking water at its mouth is pointless, you know?
 

Solarion

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We really need to get off this racism carousel. Reparations are not racist, they are reparations ffs just get it round your heads. Schit is fscking cringe.

BEE is not reparations. It is a system which attempts to to give the 90% overwhelming majority equal and fair employment opportunities over the 10% minority just in case the 10% minority overnight all had 45 million babies and increased their numbers to match the majority.
 

rambo919

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BEE is not reparations. It is a system which attempts to to give the 90% overwhelming majority equal and fair employment opportunities over the 10% minority just in case the 10% minority overnight all had babies and increased their numbers ten fold.
Put differently it's part of a complex tax system meant to manipulate the minority to transfer their assets to the majority. It's basically legal extortion.
 

R13...

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I agree with her. Making a racist law that forces people to do special things with people of a particular skin colour reinforces the notion that those people aren't competent enough to cut it on their own.
It isn't that they can't cut it on their own but rather that racist gate keepers who think race equates to ability hold them back.
 

netstrider

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Logic, but that's not how the ANC work they want the masses stupid so they can keep on looting.
Of course, it's not their MO.

I guess what I'm trying to point to is how simple it could be and we'd arguably be much further along by now.
 

Stonemason

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When you remove the toxic idea that some people are inherently less than others it becomes clear that the solution is to level that gradient or better yet: remove the fence (capitalism).
What do you replace it with? Communism failed spectacularly and even socialism has proven itself to be mostly unworkable unless the government has an outside source of income (Saudi Arabia with their oil)
1948-1994 is actually 46 years but I'm ok with rounding up if you are? How do you figure that half the time is enough to fix double the problem though? I'm being massively reductive but I'm just trying to understand the logic...
Actually it was closer to 42 years. Petty apartheid fell in 1990 and grand apartheid was over by 1992.
 

rambo919

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It isn't that they can't cut it on their own but rather that racist gate keepers who think race equates to ability hold them back.
Which presupposes that "all the spots have already been filled".
 

Lupus

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Why is it that you default to the idea that maiming the people is the only way to solve this instead of chopping down the fence? Seems pretty dof oke.


Everyone is not on the same playing field. Reconsider the first image in your cartoon but instead of each individual being different sizes, they are the same height - each standing on successively lower gradients.

When you remove the toxic idea that some people are inherently less than others it becomes clear that the solution is to level that gradient or better yet: remove the fence (capitalism).


1948-1994 is actually 46 years but I'm ok with rounding up if you are? How do you figure that half the time is enough to fix double the problem though? I'm being massively reductive but I'm just trying to understand the logic...


Again: agree strongly. It is an absolute disgrace... I struggle to find the adjective to suitably describe it.


Good question for which there isn't a good answer, at least not one that I have heard.
Apartheid ended in 1991, so 43 years, I'm happy to round down for you so 40 years, the ANC were voted into power in 1994 (27 years) where they've not managed to do anything but drive the country further down.
Also the whole point of equality is everyone is on the same playing field, but as the cartoon would show it doesn't matter as there are circumstances that make it so you'll see life differently. But everyone seems to think equality is equity when in reality it isn't.
With equality you're all given the same deck of cards, yes you might lose some of your deck due to circumstances, but you all started the same. Sadly the world isn't equal and it never has been, so equality is a myth, all we can for is everyone is treated fairly, which also doesn't happen.
 

cr@zydude

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When any democratic country has put laws in place which discriminate against a tiny ethnic minority from participating in the economy as freely as an overwhelming majority, then you have to ask two questions:

1. What is so special about this tiny minority that they need to be handicapped in order to compete fairly?
2. What is wrong with the majority that they are unable to compete with the tiny minority?

These are questions I have personally been asked from people overseas when talking about BEE. They look at the numbers and it doesn't add up since Affirmative Action has always historically been imposed on the majority in order for the minority to have equal opportunities. You literally get this look of confusion.

The tiny minority (which is actually about 8%) has received the greatest opportunities for decades and continues have an advantage due to this.

AA hasn't "always" been imposed on the majority. While it's true that SA's first AA policy was to protect white miners from competition from black miners, Malaysia is an example of current AA to the advantage of the majority.
 
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