BBBEE 'has reinforced white supremacy' - Thuli Madonsela on why SA needs to relook at model

noxibox

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When any democratic country has put laws in place which discriminate against a tiny ethnic minority from participating in the economy as freely as an overwhelming majority, then you have to ask two questions:

1. What is so special about this tiny minority that they need to be handicapped in order to compete fairly?
2. What is wrong with the majority that they are unable to compete with the tiny minority?

These are questions I have personally been asked from people overseas when talking about BEE. They look at the numbers and it doesn't add up since Affirmative Action has always historically been imposed on the majority in order for the minority to have equal opportunities. You literally get this look of confusion.
Sure if you had no knowledge of the history you'd ask the second question. But that would require just recently emerging after living in a bunker for a hundred years level ignorance.
 

prOd

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Do these people from overseas not ask you why all the petrol pump attendants/gardeners/domestic workers, etc. are black? Does that add up for them? I'm asking because these people from overseas are clearly so enlightened about equal opportunities. I mean, is it just that no white people have wished for the opportunity to pump petrol for minimum wage?

What have any of those done to you that you degrade their professions so? And by the way, there are white petrol attendants at the Engen close to my house.

Furthermore, looking at our demographics it makes sense...in US most min. wage workers are white no?
 

Milano

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Do these people from overseas not ask you why all the petrol pump attendants/gardeners/domestic workers, etc. are black? Does that add up for them? I'm asking because these people from overseas are clearly so enlightened about equal opportunities. I mean, is it just that no white people have wished for the opportunity to pump petrol for minimum wage?

OT: Weirdly petrol pump attendant positions are almost exclusively reserved for males and supermarket cashier positions almost exclusively reserved for females. Cashier positions more so than PP attendants, so much so that it is weird to have a male ring up your groceries in countries where it is closer to 50:50.
 

rambo919

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Many white kids today would jump at being a petrol attendant as a starter job.... it's just that no one want's to hire them.

On the other hand there is the paranoid obsession with many white parents to drill their kids to focus on doing high paying jobs as well as "petrol attendant" not looking good on the CV of a corporate law job seeker.....

There is so much BS in the job/student market today.

I can't get a job because I can't get experience because I can't get a job because etc.....

"My experence is as a petrol attendant" "sorry that's not the kind of experience we need"..... so obviously no one that wants something more tries to get this job because he sees it as literally determental to future employment.
 

netstrider

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If this school gets the investment and becomes a good school, am I allowed to send my "advantaged" child there and get the same benefits, or must the "advantaged" children pay while "disadvantaged" children get for free? How is it decided who gets it free and who must pay? How do we prevent that the paying children will need to pay more to cover for those who does not pay? This does seem like a good approach though, problem is that socialism is not sustainable.
It happens in many schools already that some children with parents in a low-income bracket get subsidized. They still pay, but not nearly full price.

It's not full-on socialism, say you give the advantage for 2 generations for people that live in and around said low-income area - if they qualify based on income. In other words, it's not socialism into perpetuity.

The thing is there's a lot more that needs to go with that, the law needs to be upheld in and around the area as well otherwise the school will be vandalised by year-end.
 

Benedict A55h0le

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On the other hand there is the paranoid obsession with many white parents to drill their kids to focus on doing high paying jobs as well as "petrol attendant" not looking good on the CV of a corporate law job seeker.....
This is not paranoia, if a white does not have rare skills or starts his/her own business, you are fvcked. It is make or break for whites, BEE has taken away the in-between.
 

Gyre

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This is not paranoia, if a white does not have rare skills or starts his/her own business, you are fvcked. It is make or break for whites, BEE has taken away the in-between.

What is the substitute?

How is it different for black people? Will a petrol attendant ever be more than a petrol attendant without BEE?
 

netstrider

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What is the substitute?

How is it different for black people? Will a petrol attendant ever be more than a petrol attendant without BEE?
The thing is, if you're only qualified to be a petrol attendant (basically no qualification) then yes, no matter the colour of your skin, that's the type of job you can expect to land - if you're lucky to get a job.

That's why you focus on the petrol attendant's children (preferably he/she would not have more than 2 at most) by giving them a proper education, food at school and working facilities in a safe environment.
 

Benedict A55h0le

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What is the substitute?

How is it different for black people? Will a petrol attendant ever be more than a petrol attendant without BEE?
It is entirely up to the person, no BEE needed. It is different for black people because they can choose to not learn rare skills but still have a job. Whites wont get that petrol attendant jobs.
 

Benedict A55h0le

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The thing is, if you're only qualified to be a petrol attendant (basically no qualification) then yes, no matter the colour of your skin, that's the type of job you can expect to land - if you're lucky to get a job.

That's why you focus on the petrol attendant's children (preferably he/she would not have more than 2 at most) by giving them a proper education, food at school and working facilities in a safe environment.
I know of a family that emigrated because they saw other kids get free food at school while theirs got none. Now they live in a country that gives all kids free food and education.
 

Gyre

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The thing is, if you're only qualified to be a petrol attendant (basically no qualification) then yes, no matter the colour of your skin, that's the type of job you can expect to land - if you're lucky to get a job.

That's why you focus on the petrol attendant's children (preferably he/she would not have more than 2 at most) by giving them a proper education, food at school and working facilities in a safe environment.

That is what I meant, race aside, not a lot of people like to see car guard, petrol attendant, gardener, on CVs. People see BEE as a disadvantage to them, not taking into account that they have advantages in other areas that do not cover BEE, like home language, upbringing, areas they grew up in, family with reliable income, etc.

You can have two candidates with the exact same qualifications, BEE will allow one to be favoured while bias will allow the other to be favored. There is no winning in the situation.
 

netstrider

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I know of a family that emigrated because they saw other kids get free food at school while theirs got none. Now they live in a country that gives all kids free food and education.
Depends.

Chances are the school the attendant's children go to is likely to have mostly low-income kids. In that case that school could be set up as such - give the entire school free meals.

If you can afford to send your child to a decent school then you can probably afford to pack them lunch or give them canteen money.

Since we're talking state schools in very low-income areas I'm not suggesting fillet steaks every second day. Something to keep the bellies full while still being nutritious. Perhaps just one meal per day - better than nothing.
 

Bonywasawarrioraway

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Many white kids today would jump at being a petrol attendant as a starter job.... it's just that no one want's to hire them.

On the other hand there is the paranoid obsession with many white parents to drill their kids to focus on doing high paying jobs as well as "petrol attendant" not looking good on the CV of a corporate law job seeker.....

There is so much BS in the job/student market today.

I can't get a job because I can't get experience because I can't get a job because etc.....

"My experence is as a petrol attendant" "sorry that's not the kind of experience we need"..... so obviously no one that wants something more tries to get this job because he sees it as literally determental to future employment.
I do a high paying job in a very specialised field. How specialised you ask? there are less than 60 people who do what I do in SA. roughly 25 of these do so at the highest level. It takes twelve years on average to reach this level in SA where the training program is the fastest in the world. My education includes seven years of full time (tho not consecutive) tertiary study, and 35 years experience in the industry.

My very first job between matric exams and national service was as a casual labourer. And it was hard labour. I am proud of this fact and it is very useful as a form of street cred when I need to convince subordinates that unpleasant and tedious work needs doing.

And I do include it on my CV. It screams "not afraid of work". We need to get away from the idea of classism when it comes to employment. After all many university students pumped petrol, flipped burgers and waited tables to pay their way. This is to their credit not an embarrassment. I often wonder how many NSFAS students do this.
 

TheChamp

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Depends.

Chances are the school the attendant's children go to is likely to have mostly low-income kids. In that case that school could be set up as such - give the entire school free meals.

If you can afford to send your child to a decent school then you can probably afford to pack them lunch or give them canteen money.
Benedict is telling tales.
 

SlinkyMike

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Who has BEE hurt in this thread? How many people have been robbed of car guard jobs and being petrol attendants? :p
Everyone hung up on the petrol attendant comment cos they have no answer for my actual question. Same schit different day. Weak sauce though my word. :ROFL:
 

noxibox

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Disagree. The damage done over 50 years of apartheid cannot be undone with a referendum.
No it can't be undone quickly. The original prediction was it taking about the same time to correct. But the problem is the ANC has effectively squandered the last 25 years. South Africa's education system for white people wasn't that great to begin with, but it was adequate. Instead of expanding that to include everyone they came up with grand schemes. Combined with too many whose sole aim was to make a quick buck South Africa's education is dismal. And instead of the slow, long slog to correct it they look for more quick fixes. On top of all that they've been trashing everything else too. So far there is little sign they are willing and able to deal with this.

The National Party was basically the same. They were happily driving South Africa to the edge of the cliff. They were basically fanatics.

The problem with this cartoon is that it plays on the idea that some members of society are inherently less capable. The shorter figures in this drawing are not shorter due to oppression from the taller ones (as they are in our society here in SA) they are represented as innately less than the taller figures which is inaccurate in the context of our discussion and in fact the very thing that Thuli Madonsela is discussing wrt to BBBEE reinforcing white supremacy, as per the article.
Not really. There is plenty of evidence that those who strive to make everyone equal are willing to drag everybody down to achieve it.

They're shorter because they still need to grow taller. They have the potential. Making sure they get the opportunity is worthwhile, but these things are hard to implement. People who think that employers would naturally have hired women or black people because they make hiring decisions based purely on merit are certainly living in a fantasy world. But at the same time rigid quotas are not the answer. Especially when you're crippling the education system.
 
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