BBBEE 'has reinforced white supremacy' - Thuli Madonsela on why SA needs to relook at model

SlinkyMike

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Who has BEE hurt in this thread? How many people have been robbed of car guard jobs and being petrol attendants? :p
Everyone hung up on the petrol attendant comment cos they have no answer for my actual question. Same schit different day. Weak sauce though my word. :ROFL:
 

noxibox

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Disagree. The damage done over 50 years of apartheid cannot be undone with a referendum.
No it can't be undone quickly. The original prediction was it taking about the same time to correct. But the problem is the ANC has effectively squandered the last 25 years. South Africa's education system for white people wasn't that great to begin with, but it was adequate. Instead of expanding that to include everyone they came up with grand schemes. Combined with too many whose sole aim was to make a quick buck South Africa's education is dismal. And instead of the slow, long slog to correct it they look for more quick fixes. On top of all that they've been trashing everything else too. So far there is little sign they are willing and able to deal with this.

The National Party was basically the same. They were happily driving South Africa to the edge of the cliff. They were basically fanatics.

The problem with this cartoon is that it plays on the idea that some members of society are inherently less capable. The shorter figures in this drawing are not shorter due to oppression from the taller ones (as they are in our society here in SA) they are represented as innately less than the taller figures which is inaccurate in the context of our discussion and in fact the very thing that Thuli Madonsela is discussing wrt to BBBEE reinforcing white supremacy, as per the article.
Not really. There is plenty of evidence that those who strive to make everyone equal are willing to drag everybody down to achieve it.

They're shorter because they still need to grow taller. They have the potential. Making sure they get the opportunity is worthwhile, but these things are hard to implement. People who think that employers would naturally have hired women or black people because they make hiring decisions based purely on merit are certainly living in a fantasy world. But at the same time rigid quotas are not the answer. Especially when you're crippling the education system.
 

supersunbird

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This is actually a well known issue in psychotherapy, essentially: how do you help someone with psychological issues to get to a point where they are self sufficient ...while also not convincing them that they are a basket case who cannot function without a shrink?

The fact is thought that (yes, even 25 years after democracy) the vast majority of PoC in this country are utterly disenfranchised with zero upward mobility. A lot of the users on this forum will argue that everything should be equal simply because PoC can now vote as if that some kind of a silver bullet for all social disease and not simply the least that one should expect from a civilised nation. Unfortunately 'just democracy' isn't enough to create a more equal society, as we can see.

We have a problem that needs to find a solution somehow, for everyones sake. A society that is more equal has less of the social disease that we all suffer from in our beloved SA.

Yes, but is that the white peoples fault?
 

noxibox

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I know of a family that emigrated because they saw other kids get free food at school while theirs got none. Now they live in a country that gives all kids free food and education.
It wouldn't surprise me. Some people really are that petty.

Depends.

Chances are the school the attendant's children go to is likely to have mostly low-income kids. In that case that school could be set up as such - give the entire school free meals.

If you can afford to send your child to a decent school then you can probably afford to pack them lunch or give them canteen money.

Since we're talking state schools in very low-income areas I'm not suggesting fillet steaks every second day. Something to keep the bellies full while still being nutritious. Perhaps just one meal per day - better than nothing.
Low income and decent are not mutually exclusive. If I were sending my children to a state school, and there are only two countries I can think of offhand where I'd subject my children to it, it wouldn't concern me if the school provided meals for poorer children.
 

Gyre

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It is entirely up to the person, no BEE needed. It is different for black people because they can choose to not learn rare skills but still have a job. Whites wont get that petrol attendant jobs.

How can they still have a job? We can't have millions of petrol attendants just because people are black, somewhere there is going to be a cutoff on the number of employable people and the saturated job market. Everyone needs rare skills or would benefit from rare skills, the decision at the end of the day lies on the employer who they want to go with in any case.

Just as an employer would easily take a BEE candidate, they'd also take a client with more social skills, similar language and culture or a better appearance.
 

WaxLyrical

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Is she saying is the BBBee is making whites more rascist.

Would help to not use the term white supremacist.
 

netstrider

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Do these people from overseas not ask you why all the petrol pump attendants/gardeners/domestic workers, etc. are black? Does that add up for them? I'm asking because these people from overseas are clearly so enlightened about equal opportunities. I mean, is it just that no white people have wished for the opportunity to pump petrol for minimum wage?
I missed this comment since you are still harbouring on it, I'll give you my take.

Yes, people do ask why are they almost exclusively black (believe it or not, once in a blue moon you do see white ones).

The answer is that they come from a disadvantaged background. I believe we have all established this by now. The solution, however, is to offer that man or woman the opportunity to go up the workforce ladder by giving him or her the chance at a subsidized (or in extreme cases even free) education. The most likely would be to go through ABET and then into a trade field. Subsequently, focus on enriching their children's lives as I've mentioned before.

You cannot give every petrol attendant a cushy job just because the past was unfair. You can redress that by ensuring they do have the means to escape poverty - see paragraph above, and nurture the youngsters in their community.
 

noxibox

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Yes, but is that the white peoples fault?
It isn't, but it would be very inconvenient for the government and its voters to admit that. Worse when they become dissatisfied with the ANC there's a tendency to switch even bigger muppets like the EFF.
 

SlinkyMike

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The key is, to remember there is no fence.
That's true ...for some people. Most will have to work hard enough to achieve a decent lifestyle and upward mobility.

That's the fence.

Unless you are from a stupendously wealthy family, everyone works to get their head above that line - it's called capitalism (there are some slow ones in this thread so forgive me for belabouring the point).

I know a guy (who now has a PhD mind you - he's frikken brilliantly smart) who grew up in a village with no electricity or running water. He's the first person in his family to finish high school, parents are illiterate.

I grew up in the southern suburbs of Cape Town, both parents educated, computers in my home since I was a tween, access to the internet, early programming lessons (LOGO anyone??), etc.

Are you telling me that 'the playing field is level' between me and him as we both approach a career in IT in our early twenties? Do you really believe that?
 

Lupus

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That's true ...for some people. Most will have to work hard enough to achieve a decent lifestyle and upward mobility.

That's the fence.

Unless you are from a stupendously wealthy family, everyone works to get their head above that line - it's called capitalism (there are some slow ones in this thread so forgive me for belabouring the point).

I know a guy (who now has a PhD mind you - he's frikken brilliantly smart) who grew up in a village with no electricity or running water. He's the first person in his family to finish high school, parents are illiterate.

I grew up in the southern suburbs of Cape Town, both parents educated, computers in my home since I was a tween, access to the internet, early programming lessons (LOGO anyone??), etc.

Are you telling me that 'the playing field is level' between me and him as we both approach a career in IT in our early twenties? Do you really believe that?

No I said in theory he should be equally allowed to get where he wants to get to, same as you. But the starting place is different.
 

SlinkyMike

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Yes, but is that the white peoples fault?
It really doesn't matter anymore. There exists a very lopsided distribution of wealth in this country and it must be addressed. Most of the folks in this thread decrying affirmative action do so from levels of comfort that the vast majority of the nation will never even hope to experience and that is an ignorant and entitled worldview. So you were passed over for a management position that went to a black oke? You still earn a middle class salary, private healthcare bundled into your package and an ok if not great RA. Decent place fo work where you are treated with some dignity and respect. Go tell the guy who works his ass off in your garden every other week how unfair your life is... blithering idiots, did relatively little to get it and you still don't even know what you have.
 

SlinkyMike

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No I said in theory he should be equally allowed to get where he wants to get to, same as you. But the starting place is different.
If the starting place is different then how is it equal?
 

Lupus

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It really doesn't matter anymore. There exists a very lopsided distribution of wealth in this country and it must be addressed. Most of the folks in this thread decrying affirmative action do so from levels of comfort that the vast majority of the nation will never even hope to experience and that is an ignorant and entitled worldview. So you were passed over for a management position that went to a black oke? You still earn a middle class salary, private healthcare bundled into your package and an ok if not great RA. Decent place fo work where you are treated with some dignity and respect. Go tell the guy who works his ass off in your garden every other week how unfair your life is... blithering idiots, did relatively little to get it and you still don't even know what you have.
Redistribution of wealth isn't the way, one way is to stop paying useless politicians so much, they are there to work for the people, not milk the people. Redistribute that wealth.
 

Big Rat

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Yeah seems a rather arbitrary thing to emigrate over.

Let us assume for a second this part over school meals is true...
If it is me that gets excluded over something, well, i guess i will just suck it up.
But hamper my child or disadvantage my child, and the unfairness is magnified a 1000fold.
And with this scenario is probably was the icing on the cake, the straw that broke the camel's back... If a kid cannot get food at school with the other kids, what future is here for that kid? And that idea rolls around in your head and just grows bigger.

So yes, i can imagine that some parents will view such a thing as a biggie. The only reason to move, nah, but add to few other things and a bit of paranoia, i can see that happening.
 

netstrider

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It really doesn't matter anymore. There exists a very lopsided distribution of wealth in this country and it must be addressed. Most of the folks in this thread decrying affirmative action do so from levels of comfort that the vast majority of the nation will never even hope to experience and that is an ignorant and entitled worldview. So you were passed over for a management position that went to a black oke? You still earn a middle class salary, private healthcare bundled into your package and an ok if not great RA. Decent place fo work where you are treated with some dignity and respect. Go tell the guy who works his ass off in your garden every other week how unfair your life is... blithering idiots, did relatively little to get it and you still don't even know what you have.
Just be careful not to pigeonhole everyone. Not everyone in a comfortable position came from one.

Handouts in the form of mass socialism are also not the solution.

Helping the disadvantaged population be more productive citizens over the short and long term is the solution. It won't happen overnight but could have been much further along with if we had started, say, around 2000.
 

supersunbird

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It really doesn't matter anymore. There exists a very lopsided distribution of wealth in this country and it must be addressed. Most of the folks in this thread decrying affirmative action do so from levels of comfort that the vast majority of the nation will never even hope to experience and that is an ignorant and entitled worldview. So you were passed over for a management position that went to a black oke? You still earn a middle class salary, private healthcare bundled into your package and an ok if not great RA. Decent place fo work where you are treated with some dignity and respect. Go tell the guy who works his ass off in your garden every other week how unfair your life is... blithering idiots, did relatively little to get it and you still don't even know what you have.

Yes, it must be addressed, not by taking the wealth of someone else, but by enabling (quality education for all and safety and security for example) and then building new wealth, which has actually been hampered the political party in power and their policies. But that same party gets voted in time and again.
 

rambo919

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And I do include it on my CV. It screams "not afraid of work". We need to get away from the idea of classism when it comes to employment. After all many university students pumped petrol, flipped burgers and waited tables to pay their way. This is to their credit not an embarrassment. I often wonder how many NSFAS students do this.
Zactly, this idea of "career is a one way train trip" and if you don't follow the traveling instructions precisely you have to re-start from the beginning.

It's stupid on so many levels. The cheapest education options like Unisa also subscribe to this outdated classicist model, in this case because it's a giant institution that is so bureaucratized it is literally rotting away from bloat I think..... and for someone working a low income job Unisa aint cheap. And then there is the "cheap loan" trap.

Our entire model of employment and education needs to be redone, we need to encourage children not throw so much fear of failure and overflow of end-goals at them that it ends up in decision parallelization. It's not mentally healthy to want to force someone who does not yet know him/her-self yet to be a "generic occupation specialization".

When I speak the the older generations that all are now successful and stable there is ONE pattern that shines through:
childhood menial employment creating a habit based work ethic, lack of entitlement, focus on what is in front of you rather than what you think you want ahead.

On the other hand many of my age peers are basically perpetual adolescents.
 
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