Bike not starting •

[moose007]

Hey Guys,

Just want some info, hopefully you can assist.

I have a motomia corretto 200cc, and I missed out on the warranty as I was unable to get back to the store before the 400km limit, as I needed the bike to get to work and back.

(Stupid, yes I know but the parts are cheap in any case so not the end of the world)

Now, I turned a corner after stopping at a stop street while riding my bike and it just died, tried starting it... nothing. (It has 1000k's on the clock)

Engine turned over perfectly, no funny noises, nothing of the sort.

So first assumption was petrol ,maybe the carb was blocked or something or other. I have removed the carb cleaned it up, no problems. Still wont start. (There was spark)

I then took it to a friend who was a mechanic and he said CDI might have packed up due to bad timing of the spark and a weak spark (Turns out that is not the issue, spark is strong, there is petrol and definitely compression)

So now he seems to think the timing chain could have slipped, is it possible that the timing chain could have slipped with absolutely no warning or weird sounds happening and stop the bike from starting again completely, or even attempting to start?

Hopefully one of you has had a similar situation and can help me out. Thanks!

 

[Pitbull]

First thing is to check the spark. Remove the bogi cord and check if it sparks.

Bike engines are pretty simple. If it has spark and fuel it will start.

Either spark or fuel.

 

[moose007]

It has both and doesn't start whatsoever.

 

[Pitbull]

Only read your full post now.

I don't know your bike but the chains are encased and near impossible for it to slip. If there is spark and fuel it must start. I can't see a bike's timing going amiss tbh. Never heard of it

 

[moose007]

I agree entirely!

And if there is fuel and spark you would imagine fire, but believe me, it does not start. We even tried (Much to my dismay) ethanol(fast start?) or something like that and it never fired, and there is definitely spark. At first I thought the spark is badly timed so maybe CDI is the issue (as I was told it more than likely was as well) bought a brand new CDI, sparking beautifully... no start.

 

[Pitbull]

I agree entirely!

And if there is fuel and spark you would imagine fire, but believe me, it does not start. We even tried (Much to my dismay) ethanol(fast start?) or something like that and it never fired, and there is definitely spark. At first I thought the spark is badly timed so maybe CDI is the issue (as I was told it more than likely was as well) bought a brand new CDI, sparking beautifully... no start.

And the piston is turning over?

Remove the spark plug and get a long screw driver and put in inside so it touches the piston. Put the bike in gear and push it slowly. See if the screw driver goes up or down.

Remove the air filter and choke the carb with your hand while you try and start it. Bleed the reserve cup on the carb. Could be that the bike is flooded. Kinda hard without seeing the actual bike. Bike is brand new, should not be giving you these issues. It's going to be something small I promise you that

 

[Purply]

The folks at motomia are very helpful, give them a call, they will tell you exactly what is wrong.

Alternatively, if you scared of phones, drop them a message on facebook.

 

[happynoodleboy]

Do you have to hold the brake while starting ?

 

[moose007]

I hope you are correct!

I have taken the carb off and cleaned it, piston is definitely moving as there is good compression, I have tried the choke method, nothing. I have heard of the kill switch giving issues but then there would be no spark?

Will give it another go tonight! I seriously doubt its the timing but I cant think of anything else it could be.

Do you have to hold the brake while starting ?

I have attempted starting it exactly as I have always done. I cant tell you off hand, but I have done it the same way as when it did start. (I don't think it is required in all honesty)

 

[konfab]

The folks at motomia are very helpful, give them a call, they will tell you exactly what is wrong.

Alternatively, if you scared of phones, drop them a message on facebook.

This, they really are helpful.

 

[happynoodleboy]

Why I am asking is my scooter did the same kinda thing a while back.
Would just cut out for no reason, wouldn't start.

took it in to have it looked at, turned out the kill switch was stuffing around.
1 loose-ish wire

But like the guys say, phone them for advice.

 

[moose007]

Thanks! I will do!

 

[werner]

I've never seen your bike, so take this as just generic info from working on many other bikes that are all vaguely similar enough, and going by your info.
If you are sitting on the bike, the clutch is on the right, and on the other side (left) is the stator/coil/call it what you want thingy)
This is held in place with a nice fat nut. And it is placed in the correct position, and held there, by a woodruff key.

Timing...well you got 4stroke, so you got valve timing and ignition timing. Valve timing chain slipping? agree, never heard of that happening. If it did I would suspect the noises would sound expensive (interference engine)...or just sound very very odd (normal engine)..as the piston wouldnt give any compression.

Ignition timing going wonky? yup, seen that when the woodruff key breaks. (which it shouldnt)

If you have no diagnostic tools,
I would remove the left hand engine cover, remove the nut holding the stator on (big round turning thing that is under the cover), use a puller to get the stator off and then go have a looksee at the keyed area, make sure it isnt chewed up.

If you have a timing light,
You can get an idea of what is happening using a timing light without actually removing the stator, as you have electric start....the stator should have some mark on it to show you where the spark should occur...connect your timing light and crank the engine and see if it aligns, or is WAY off.

Spark, air, fuel, compression. You need those 4.
I believe you have them from what you wrote, so their sequencing must be out.

go here http://www.motorcityatv.com/yamaha-banshee-qa/ and start reading from Q3 to get an idea...they're all essentially the same.

moving pictures
[video=youtube;yLaZnbmloYw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLaZnbmloYw[/video]

 

[Ridolfc]

Solution: Put the petrol tap on the side of the tank to the open position.

You're welcome

 

[moose007]

I've never seen your bike, so take this as just generic info from working on many other bikes that are all vaguely similar enough, and going by your info.
If you are sitting on the bike, the clutch is on the right, and on the other side (left) is the stator/coil/call it what you want thingy)
This is held in place with a nice fat nut. And it is placed in the correct position, and held there, by a woodruff key.

snip/

Thanks a ton! Would there be spark if the stator was buggered?

Solution: Put the petrol tap on the side of the tank to the open position.

You're welcome

Hahaha! I wish that was the problem.

 

[werner]

the stator has coils for charging the battery, and coils for producing spark. Sometimes they (spark c oils) are little black boxes on the outside, but nevertheless, if the flywheel/stator/big round thing, has managed to move then you will have spark, but it will be in the wrong place from a degree point of view. If you have little black boxes then they can work loose, but that tends to be a no-spark area, as they need to be a certain distance from the coils to work in the first place. I dont know what system your bike uses, but conceptually, they all work the same. Thing turns, coils get close, CDI unit creates spark. If they get close in the wrong part of the turn, you still get spark, in the wrong place, and no running engine.

Buggered...is a very vague term. Could be buggered in a hundred ways.

In a former life, we used to sell bikes, so did the assembling and pre-delivery inspection etc as well as servicing and repairs. Checking the flywheel/stator area was nicely tight was one of the things WE did (not saying it is necessary for everybody to do ths...we all have our own standards, so pls dnt go running to small claims court over a R5 woodruff key that is easy to replace). If the big bolt is proper loose and the key has sheared it'll make a horrible noise when turning over quickly (i.e. on the starter button) as it will rattle about a bit. You dont seem to have that.
But if the bolt was just a bit loose, then the weight of the flywheel, and the rotational force of it gets transferred to the woodruff key...which wont be able to handle it at all after a few km's. And the symptoms will match what you have written down. A new key and some loctite on the bolt and you are good to go. They key is made out of softer stuff than the shaft so that when it does wear, the shaft should still be perfect (check the linked video...the recess in the shaft didnt take damage)

 

[moose007]

You seem to be on the right track here, I hope it's that woodruff key you speak of.

Thanks a ton!

 

[SauRoNZA]

I'm confused as to your explanation of "not starting".

Is it not doing anything at all? That would be electrical and nothing to do with timing chain.

Is it trying to start but not actually taking? That would be mechanical.

These bikes have supremely shoddy wiring so if it's the former I would look for every switch (clutch, stand etc) that would potentially stop it trying to start...and if it's none of those it could very well be an earthing or wiring loom issue even.

If it's actually attempting to start, different story.

 

[werner]

let us know how you get on.
Not being funny, but somebody know knows bikes will be able to confirm or deny this theory without too much hassle pretty quickly, as you can set the bike to top dead centre and then look at the flywheel/stator assembly and get an idea whats going on. Wiggle it a bit, talk to the bike etc....But you need to remove the lhs cover first. If the coils are external then there is often a magnet embedded into the flywheel so you get an idea of where things are...or use a timing light.

Btw, did you perhaps notice just before it died if it was a small bit down on power, or if, as it died, did it backfire first/sound stupid?

 

[moose007]

Btw, did you perhaps notice just before it died if it was a small bit down on power, or if, as it died, did it backfire first/sound stupid?

It did not just stop all of a sudden, it lost all power, it was idling but losing power quickly and when I opened throttle it was going nowhere. In a matter of about 6 seconds it was all over.

I'm confused as to your explanation of "not starting".

Is it not doing anything at all? That would be electrical and nothing to do with timing chain.

Is it trying to start but not actually taking? That would be mechanical.

These bikes have supremely shoddy wiring so if it's the former I would look for every switch (clutch, stand etc) that would potentially stop it trying to start...and if it's none of those it could very well be an earthing or wiring loom issue even.

If it's actually attempting to start, different story.

I have assumed it was either A) petrol or B) electrical, from the beginning. Petrol because it always comes to mind first, and electrical because it just died without having any dodgy sounds etc. (It never sputtered and died as would be the case with petrol either)

When I hold the starter motor button, it turns but doesn't even get close to firing, you can hear the compression and subtle popping noises but that's it. A guy has checked the wiring and said its fine (So I assume it is) I have not checked the kill switch, but surely there would be no spark if it was the kill switch.