Billy Downer prosecuting Jacob Zuma

captainwifi

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Mar 4, 2005
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834
Billy Downer the deputy director of prosecutions prosecuted Jacob Zuma. Selebi the head of the SAPS is a staunch supporter of Zuma. What the SAPS is asking of Billy Downer is for him to sign the FCA form on p.6 but on p.10 Selebi can recommend under the section: "Describe the mental condition of the candidate ...." that Billy Downer confided in him that he is a cross between Donald Duck and Kublai Khan on an undercover mission to reinstate the ancient kingdom of King Tut.

Based this information the Central Firearms Registrar must decide wether to relicense Bill Downer's personal firearms.

There is no love lost between the NPA and the SAPS. Would Vusi Pikoli sign a form giving the SAPS the right to confiscate his personal firearms that he obtained under the old gun law? What about the wifes, brother, sisters and friends of the NPA - could they attract the special attention of a relicensing official in the SAPS dealing with their application forms? What about the prosecutors in general? What would be the effect if the criminals knew that all the prosecutors have had their firearms confiscated but also that of their wifes who are now defencless at an address organised crime can easily obtain ?


With the Firearms control act the view of the NPA was that an existing right given under the previous Firearms act that was replaced can't be arbitrarily revoked. Under the previous law a gun license was valid for life. Under existing law your house remains your property for life and after death you can decide who inherits it. Should there be a prosecution and conviction of a person who did not relicense it would establish a general precedent that the government can confiscate property without any form of compensation.

It was reported in the Citizen that John Welch views it as unconstitutional to force a person to relicense who had received a firearm license under the old law. Five days before the Dec.31 2005 deadline Minister Nqakula had a meeting with John Welch the deputy director of Prosecutions. John Welch himself has 12 guns and won't relicense his firearms, in other words the government expects Welch to prosecute himself. In the meeting Welch indicated that he won't prosecute anybody who failed to relicense and thus the government postponed the whole thing till June 2009. Furthermore the FCA is open ended. Meaning any terms and conditiions can be arbitrarily amended. So for example if the act is amended after enough people has relicensed then it would be a simple matter to gazette that all guns that have been relicensed and licensed under the FCA must be immediatly handed in at the nearest police station. And this would be an entirely constitutional and legally valid step because the person that relicensed signed a form giving the government such a right. In contrast the old Firearms law did not allow for such an open ended arbitrary amendments. And thus a test case or precedent where a single individual gets prosecuted for failing to relicense and convicted would be the only way to test the validity of the FCA in court. But only the NPA can decide to proceed with such a test case.

But the NPA can neither be forced nor prevented from attempting to establish a precedent. In terms of our constitution a person is innocent until proven guilty. Some would argue that somebody not relicensing is guilty of an offence. This is a factual and legal inaccuracy. Only the court can determine this in the first test case. But since there are no test cases and the NPA has indicated that they won't prosecute for failing to relicense, all such old license holders remain innocent until proven guilty. And the constitutional principle of innocense until proven guilty applies to all the other compliance laws. Lawyers that specifically deal with firearm relicensing also deal with cases where appeals are made in terms of the FCA. They must ofcourse be paid for this. The Gunshops know that a person who doesn't relicense will never be able to purchase another firearm from them. The Posetta training institutes makes their money from people getting a competency certificate in terms of the ECA. Under the old Gun law one did not need a competency certificate. And thus one should carefully evaluate what your are told by the various stake holders. What is the monetary gain to be extracted from a person relicensing and what implications are there for them from a financial perspective should such a person not relicense?
 

dominic

Legal Expert: Telecoms
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Sep 7, 2004
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7,329
"he is a cross between Donald Duck and Kublai Khan on an undercover mission to reinstate the ancient kingdom of King Tut."

add in some brandy and I think you may have drawn us all a picture
 

Leitmotif

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Aug 21, 2006
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The captain strikes again.

If you mean that this is conspiracy-driven rubbish, think again... and if you need convincing, go and read the FCA, and then try and license a firearm.

I'd just like to know the source for captainwifi's post.
 

captainwifi

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2005
Messages
834
"he is a cross between Donald Duck and Kublai Khan on an undercover mission to reinstate the ancient kingdom of King Tut."

add in some brandy and I think you may have drawn us all a picture

Our constitution is under seige by the ANC. The seperation of powers between the Executive(NPA) and Legislative is mandated by our consitution. The only thing preventing the ANC from changing the constitution is the fact that the whites who pay 80% of all direct income taxes will have such a heart attack that the rand will promptly collapse. With our previous currency crises the ANC were made painfully aware of the consequences of such currency depreciation.

South Africa is probably the only the country in the world where their entire tax base has absolutely ZERO political leverage or decisiion making powers. The only thing protecting as against the ECA, RICA, FCA and all the other laws attempting mind control is the constitution which the Americans forced Mandela to sign.

The ANC has engaged in a process of ethnic cleansing in the civil service and SAPS. This lead to a managerial vacuum. The incompetent people who took their places were easy to bribe. The collapse of capacity in law enforcement boomeranged on the ANC themselves as people like Shabir Shaik used Zuma as a Trojan horse to wrest the power away from the BEE and governing elite. Faced with the prospect of experiencing the results of affimative action first hand they frantically drafted an anti-corruption law. John Welch and Billy Downer to the rescue: There are eight deputy directors. The other six directors are being prosecuted by the NPA themselves for alleged criminal deeds. Only Welch and Downer have been there the longest. Welch and Downer are the most dangerous individuals to the criminal underworld that is threatening to plunge South-Africa into a mafia style state. These two individuals Selebi would love to prosecute and get rid off. Gentlemen our country is in danger, the legal fraternity with their agenda isn't explaining to you what is going on. You must get the whole background to the crises facing South Africa. South - Afica's entire abiltiy to prosecute the terrorists trying to destroy the very ANC themselves hinges on these two individuals.

Now why would they prosecute themselves on Selebi's orders?
 

Syndyre

Honorary Master
Joined
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16,821
The only thing protecting as against the ECA, RICA, FCA and all the other laws attempting mind control is the constitution which the Americans forced Mandela to sign.

How exactly did the Americans force Mandela to sign the constitution?
 

GavinMannion

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Aug 2, 2005
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Our constitution is under seige by the ANC. The seperation of powers between the Executive(NPA) and Legislative is mandated by our consitution. The only thing preventing the ANC from changing the constitution is the fact that the whites who pay 80% of all direct income taxes will have such a heart attack that the rand will promptly collapse. With our previous currency crises the ANC were made painfully aware of the consequences of such currency depreciation.

Weird to see you not pasting anything about telephone poles?

Anyway, are you suggesting that the currency crisis around 2001-2003 was the ANC's fault?

If you are I would love to see you information because from everything I read up about it, the biggest factor in our currency crisis was by unscrupulous foreign billionaires spread betting on our currency in a deliberate attempt to drop the currency. Some major international banks where also involved quite heavily.
 

Leitmotif

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Weird to see you not pasting anything about telephone poles?

Anyway, are you suggesting that the currency crisis around 2001-2003 was the ANC's fault?

If you are I would love to see you information because from everything I read up about it, the biggest factor in our currency crisis was by unscrupulous foreign billionaires spread betting on our currency in a deliberate attempt to drop the currency. Some major international banks where also involved quite heavily.

Ah, "the First World is out to get us"... traditional African excuse #4.
 

GavinMannion

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Aug 2, 2005
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Ah, "the First World is out to get us"... traditional African excuse #4.

I was actually in London at the time and read it in the Financial Times over there. Which made me buy rands when they where weak and make my one and only good forex trade :)

I have not actually heard anyone in SA complain about it...
 
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