Bitcoin is over-hyped and has no real value – South African investment firm

NarrowBandFtw

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The scariest part of all of this is the hardcore fanaticism of those defending cryptocurrencies and they are probably the people with the bulk of their investments pushed into it.

Like a Dutchman with a bag full of tulip bulbs in March 1637 ...
 

Corelli

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Luno is a small useless company

Can see it now: Stanlib and Old Mutual blocking roads and burning down the Luno offices

Luno is a small useless company running at a helluva loss and going from investor to investor to keep them afloat. Even my one company that I have a majority in has been asked and we refused. Eventually they will go bankrupt and go down like a pyramid scheme. They've been blowing money on the latest mac tech but without running a profit and it's been around 2 years without making a profit. Also they got booted out of two markets that they were in.

But that's how pyramid schemes run.

I would rather trust Old Mutual, Coronation and especially Allan Gray with my money and indeed I am heavily invested in them.
 
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Hamster

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Not gonna argue that. The feeling one gets from Luno is that they have a working BTC platform but no tech/skill to expand to other currencies like ETH. Almost every other exchange does it (ice3x etc) but Luno "has no plans for it". Not very comforting.

Anyway: FNB, 10x, Easy Equities, ABSA, Stanlib... those are the guys I trust (just like you and every other sensible guy)
 

AlphaJohn

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As anything in life value is directly linked to demand/scarcity. The Dollar and Rand only has value because of demand, scarcity regulates said value. Cyrpto is no different. As long as there is a demand for a scarce resource it will have a value. The more people that want it, the more its value.

That's why the Rand drops when ministers blunder, the demand drops so value decreases.
 

RaptorSA

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Let's ignore the fact that today's fiat currencies aren't backed by gold most of the time... the whole "backed by" argument is BS.
It's more akin to being "limited by"... with Cryptos like Bitcoin being the ultimate in "limited" while still having the intrinsic functionality to being used for all transactions by everyone into perpetuity.
The actual usefulness of the medium of exchange is irrelevant. Value isn't attached to the medium of exchange but to the transactions themselves and what they represent.

Apart from a few uses here and there Gold is pretty much useless (also, please rock up at your nearest treasury with a bag of cash and ask them to trade it for the gold that's supposedly backing it, let's see how that works out), not to mention the question "what backs gold?". If the answer is all the resources etc. that goes into mining it then take a good look at what the current hash rates, computing power and electricity use is that's being dumped into mining Cryptos. Crash or no crach, Bitcoin isn't going anywhere.

No one can claim that Bitcoin or any other Crypto will be the be-all end-all defacto currency one day, we simply don't know.
But it's amazing that an idiot like me actually understand more about what a scam the current financial system is based on and the inherent problems with it.

And that's another thing about Cryptos that has worth beyond the obvious. Understanding them forces you to understand how the current financial/banking system is built from the ground up.
And any idiot can see the fundamental problem with it once you open up that curtain. Something that the average person like me would never have cared about if it wasn't for the Crypto "revolution".

And about the whole "Bubble" thing.... Did these guys even bother to look at what the current market cap is for Bitcoin? Since it's global, how many people are actually using it? How many companies, businesses etc. have support for it? How many are adding support for it? What about if say, 1% of the Gold market flows into Bitcoin?

Well, those who say that Bitcoin isn't even close to a bubble have actually looked into those questions.... maybe they're wrong, but at least their arguments are a f**k load better laid out than the shoot-from-the-hip drivel oozing from these "experts".
 
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Ancalagon

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And about the whole "Bubble" thing.... Did these guys even bother to look at what the current market cap is for Bitcoin? Since it's global, how many people are actually using it? How many companies, businesses etc. have support for it? How many are adding support for it? What about if say, 1% of the Gold market flows into Bitcoin?

I read an article somewhere that compared the total value of all cryptocurrency in existence with the rest of the economy, to put into scale.

Simply put - Apple could purchase every unit of every cryptocurrency that exists today. That's all it would take.

Cryptocurrency is worth less than the market companies of even some medium sized companies.

The point is, for it to qualify as a bubble, there would need to be serious consequences when that bubble burst. If the cryptocurrency bubble bursts, a few companies will go under (Luna, other exchanges) and GPUs will get much cheaper. That is it. You aren't going to see crypto developers leaping from their office windows.

There is actually an argument that cryptocurrency is still undervalued. But we will see.
 

animal531

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I read an article somewhere that compared the total value of all cryptocurrency in existence with the rest of the economy, to put into scale.

Simply put - Apple could purchase every unit of every cryptocurrency that exists today. That's all it would take.

Cryptocurrency is worth less than the market companies of even some medium sized companies.

The point is, for it to qualify as a bubble, there would need to be serious consequences when that bubble burst. If the cryptocurrency bubble bursts, a few companies will go under (Luna, other exchanges) and GPUs will get much cheaper. That is it. You aren't going to see crypto developers leaping from their office windows.

There is actually an argument that cryptocurrency is still undervalued. But we will see.

The smaller scale makes it a lot easier to manipulate. You can make decent money, but you have to be smart to know when to get out.
So the real question is whether there's growth because its becoming more widespread, or if you're just trapped in a pump and dump scheme that hasn't hit the top yet.

At least as a farmer (that hasn't invested over the top in hardware) you can just passively make a bit of extra money, and you have no real risk.
 

lestoran

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“In fact, cryptocurrency is the playground of criminals revelling in the anonymity.”

Oh, so HSBC's constant money laundering for the drug cartels, and the major banks having a direct hand in the global financial meltdown (Barclays just got fined a nice wad for their involvement... So all these "legit and venerable" banking institutions do no wrong?

Comon you self protectionist dinosaur. You have NO idea of the size of the creek, you and your buddies, will soon be finding yourselves, armed with only a cardboard paddle.

Psychopathic cretins.

Well in my mind that and governments addiction to money printing (presented with the fancy word quantitive easing) and throwing millions at big corps (cleverly called bond buying) is exactly why many prefer crypto's.

I mean how long can you have interest rates near or even below zero combined with printing going on before 2008 happens x 2. Franky all they did was kick the can down the road.

When it does and they attempt the same tricks x5 cryptos will be worth 100x times more than now IMHO.

Only risk is which cryptos will survive the great crypto glut we're seeing now - THAT bubble will indeed burst.
 

akescpt

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Luno is a small useless company running at a helluva loss and going from investor to investor to keep them afloat. Even my one company that I have a majority in has been asked and we refused. Eventually they will go bankrupt and go down like a pyramid scheme. They've been blowing money on the latest mac tech but without running a profit and it's been around 2 years without making a profit. Also they got booted out of two markets that they were in.

But that's how pyramid schemes run.

I would rather trust Old Mutual, Coronation and especially Allan Gray with my money and indeed I am heavily invested in them.

dude. ok no BS. is this for real? which markets they bene kicked out of? gonna unleash googlefoo. but please update us.
 

Thor

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Luno is a small useless company running at a helluva loss and going from investor to investor to keep them afloat. Even my one company that I have a majority in has been asked and we refused. Eventually they will go bankrupt and go down like a pyramid scheme. They've been blowing money on the latest mac tech but without running a profit and it's been around 2 years without making a profit. Also they got booted out of two markets that they were in.

But that's how pyramid schemes run.

I would rather trust Old Mutual, Coronation and especially Allan Gray with my money and indeed I am heavily invested in them.
Source?
 

NarrowBandFtw

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Let's ignore the fact that today's fiat currencies aren't backed by gold most of the time... the whole "backed by" argument is BS.
None of the time btw, there isn't a single world currency left that has any direct relationship whatsoever with gold, none, zero. The Swiss were the last to make the mistake of going full fiat. Fiat currencies are however backed by their respective governments and military which the crypto currencies can't say of course.

also, please rock up at your nearest treasury with a bag of cash and ask them to trade it for the gold that's supposedly backing it, let's see how that works out
Well yeah, given that no fiat currency in the world is actually backed by gold at all, as mentioned above, this would be a silly thing to do right?

not to mention the question "what backs gold?"
Nothing at all to do with the mining effort / cost. just like any other product in the world, the cost of the product does not determine the price a client is willing to pay for it. What backs gold is the fact that every central bank in the entire world is holding onto TONS of it for the sole purpose of stabilizing their own economies. No central bank is holding crypto (at least none that I know of)
 

Corelli

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You see with banks the money gets guaranteed by the banks and then the reserve banks but with Luno there is no guarantee.
 

werneravr

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Luno is a small useless company running at a helluva loss and going from investor to investor to keep them afloat. Even my one company that I have a majority in has been asked and we refused. Eventually they will go bankrupt and go down like a pyramid scheme. They've been blowing money on the latest mac tech but without running a profit and it's been around 2 years without making a profit. Also they got booted out of two markets that they were in.

But that's how pyramid schemes run.

Hey Corelli, my name is Werner. I head up Growth and Marketing here at Luno. While you're certainly entitled to your opinions on Luno --and we're taking note on things like response time to customer emails and so on-- I just want to at least politely request the sources of your data or give a response from this side.

1. We are running in multiple countries with a permanent staff count of more than 40.
2. We certainly aren't going from "investor to investor to keep afloat". We've raised seed funding, followed by Series A (Naspers and DCG) and a top-up round from our Indonesian investors. We're a high growth company, focused on expansion and not profit, which is the only way to win in multiple markets. Most tech (certainly fintech) companies don't make a profit for years (and need not). But, you can look at our monthly volumes (across multiple markets) and do some back of napkin calculations for yourself. I'm not sure which company you have a majority in you're referring to, but happy to clarify on that point too. Many investors are interested in Bitcoin (broadly) and Luno (in specific), but obviously it needs to be a strategic fit for both sides.
3. World-renowned investors like Naspers spend months of due dilligence, they don't invest in "pyramid schemes" (and I'm not sure what your statement is based on). If it's still not clear how or when we make money: it's when customers buy or sell Bitcoin (we don't make money from deposits, withdrawals, BTC sends/receives or Bitcoin storage).
4. Not sure which two markets we were "booted" out of? We mothballed our Kenyan operations, due to the low signup/trading rates we saw there and statements by their central bank. It was a strategic decision to pause operations, however, and we were never "booted" out.

I can tell by your comments that you're not happy with Luno, but some of these statements are baseless. I assume your anger was fueled by our recent service levels? If so, it's something I personally apologise for.

We've seen huge movements in the industry: the Bitcoin price is up over 200% compared to just three months ago, and our resulting signups have more than doubled since April. We're hiring as fast as we can, but if your company workload suddenly doubles or triples (with only a fixed amount of hours in each week), there is going to be strain and growing pains. We're working round the clock to fix things, hiring lots more people (and we have already added a lot more, but training will obviously take a while longer).

DM me if you want to hop on a call.
 

pompomJuice

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This guy is embarrassing himself.

How can you be that uninformed and have such a platform to speak! It boggles the mind.

Crypto currencies are the the revolution against said regulators that have completely run amock. That's the point!
 
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