Blood Clot Risk Much Higher From Covid-19 Than With Vaccines

Paulsie

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I agree, but at the end of the day it has come round the full circle back to what has always been done.

You don't feel well or show symptoms, stay at home.

Also, did not help that authorities were stating things, well... with authority, and most of it has turned out incorrect or plain wrong.

No wonder people loose trust and start looking for own solutions.
 

Mirai

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I agree, but at the end of the day it has come round the full circle back to what has always been done.

You don't feel well or show symptoms, stay at home.

There were different opinions initially. And nobody knew what to expect. Once we had the breakthrough with DXM we had some hope. Then we had vaccines. There are some nice treatment drugs also in the works from big pharma as well.
 

Pixual

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You're aware Malone has admitted being vaxxed with Pfize
Try to understand what the doctor is saying about the vaccine. He is pro vaccine. He has spent his entire career developing vaccines. If he says that it is dangerous then he should be listened to, not made out to be a crackpot or some sort of Dr. Evil. He says it should only be given to vulnerable people, not everybody. He is among the vulnerable.

If there is one thing I have learned about humans in my life time (which spans 7 decades) it is that they can very easily be led astray. I see that happening now. People are being caused to freak out by a media gone wrong, governments who are petrified of what that media says and of course a medical profession who only know how to regurgitate what they have been fed by their bosses.

I am walking away from that melee. Just leave me be. Don’t prod the sleeping lion with sticks if you don’t want the lion to bite your arm off.
 

Daveogg

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You do know that, once infected (even asymptomatic), vaccinated people carry the same level of viral load as unvaccinated?
The science is still ambiguous on this. Yes PCR CT values (ie pharyngeal mRna load ) are comparable, but does this represent infectious virion?
This preprint non reviewed paper suggests not.

 

Little-Mermaid

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The science is still ambiguous on this. Yes PCR CT values (ie pharyngeal mRna load ) are comparable, but does this represent infectious virion?
This preprint non reviewed paper suggests not.

Did they control for natural infections as well, how many health care workers have been exposed to Covid by now pre and post vaccination keeping their immunity up? Describing break troughs as 'rare' seems a bit disingenuous as well seeing as immunity fades after about 6 months.

The Israeli Health Ministry reported Thursday the efficacy of Pfizer’s coronavirus vaccine in preventing infection has dropped to 39% but the effectiveness in preventing severe illness still remains relatively high.

The thing I do not understand is how can the virus take hold enough to infect someone and replicate to similar levels but not survive to infect others? In that study they state re-infection is mostly mild with upper respiratory symptoms like congestion, is this not where the virus spreads from? From my understanding vaccination could reduce the period of being infectious but would be dependent on how quickly the immune system responds, the closer to vaccination or a booster the better, the longer after the worse.
 
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sand_man

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From Wiki with the quoted references:

Noting the common observation that milkmaids were generally immune to smallpox, Jenner postulated that the pus in the blisters that milkmaids received from cowpox (a disease similar to smallpox, but much less virulent) protected them from smallpox.

On 14 May 1796, Jenner tested his hypothesis by inoculating James Phipps, an eight-year-old boy who was the son of Jenner's gardener. He scraped pus from cowpox blisters on the hands of Sarah Nelmes, a milkmaid who had caught cowpox from a cow called Blossom, whose hide now hangs on the wall of the St. George's Medical School library (now in Tooting). Phipps was the 17th case described in Jenner's first paper on vaccination

"Edward Jenner & Smallpox". The Edward Jenner Museum. Archived from the original on 28 June 2009.

An Inquiry into the Causes and Effects of the Variolae Vaccinae, Edward Jenner.
WhatsApp Image 2021-08-29 at 07.24.44.jpeg
 

Cosmik Debris

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Try to understand what the doctor is saying about the vaccine. He is pro vaccine. He has spent his entire career developing vaccines. If he says that it is dangerous then he should be listened to, not made out to be a crackpot or some sort of Dr. Evil. He says it should only be given to vulnerable people, not everybody. He is among the vulnerable.

How do you know who is vulnerable? Right here we have a young man that is seldom sick that was knocked flat and would have died without ICU:

I had it on a severe level.
3rd day in hospital family was called to say goodbye.
I made it through.
I am generally a healthy person.
The last time I had flu/cold was June 2015, even though others around me had flus/colds, so the general consensus was that I would probably have covid "like a bad flu" worst case.
Were they wrong!

And before I went to hospital I never coughed nor had stuff coming out my nose. I still had smell and taste.

(I got sent to hospital after taking someone else to get more meds. Dr gave me one look and insisted on assessing me.)
On entry into hospital my xrays reveal typical covid pneumonia. Still hadn't had a need to cough.
By Sun bottom third of my lungs were flooded.
I ended up being intubated...

So those that say "go to hospital if you battle to breathe". While not wrong I am going to say monitor your stats, and rather go sooner than when it is too late...
 

Daveogg

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Did they control for natural infections as well, how many health care workers have been exposed to Covid by now pre and post vaccination keeping their immunity up? Describing break troughs as 'rare' seems a bit disingenuous as well seeing as immunity fades after about 6 months.



The thing I do not understand is how can the virus take hold enough to infect someone and replicate to similar levels but not survive to infect others? In that study they state re-infection is mostly mild with upper respiratory symptoms like congestion, is this not where the virus spreads from? From my understanding vaccination could reduce the period of being infectious but would be dependent on how quickly the immune system responds, the closer to vaccination or a booster the better, the longer after the worse.
What I was commenting on the now commonly quoted and seemingly accepted notion that "breakthrough" infection carry the same (or in some cases people have quoted higher )viral load than non vaccinated infected people. The assumption is made that PCR CT values = "viral load" while in effect it's shows viral mRna load.
In order to determine what really counts and that is viable virion, one needs to culture live virus as they did in this study in a binary way ie they could either culture virus or not. However the real question that would be nice to answer is if culture positive the number of plaque forming units, this is the "viral load" number that be most informing.
Of course this is difficult as you need a BSL3 lab etc.

So why is the assumption that viral mRna load = viable virion load POSSIBLY false.

We accept breakthrough infection occurs when neutralising antibodies fail to neutralise the virion and infection of a host cell to produces a virus. The virus then "produces" further virion to infect other cells. Cellular immunity will then be activated to destroy the "virus".
Vaccination and or previous infection allows the cellular immune response to be activated much quicker.
So the timeline of infection between previously exposed(infection and or vaccination) and virginal patients may well be different. In previously exposed individuals by the time they become symptomatic (and initial PCR is done ) cellular immunity may have destroyed a large amount of virus, resulting in a lot of viral RNA but not viable virion being present.
 

JohnStarr

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Guess you never go outside your house either, have you seen how bad it can get out there? Everyone has a different risk profile and risk acceptance. His case if every thing you assumed is correct would be the exception to the rule.
Did I say that, or did you just assume? We go out, of course. But limit it to when we need to go to the shops. Sure as all hell don't trawl a mall to spend some time there, or go to huge parties at friends houses, or go to restaurants and movies.
 

Little-Mermaid

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Did I say that, or did you just assume? We go out, of course. But limit it to when we need to go to the shops. Sure as all hell don't trawl a mall to spend some time there, or go to huge parties at friends houses, or go to restaurants and movies.
I didn't assume anything, it was rhetorical. The same argument of 'a direct warning just how bad it can get' applies to almost everything in life but most people still go on with their lives.

You still risk it going to shops, I know of some people who would view that as to much risk, they get everything delivered at which point it stands outside for half a day before being wiped of and brought inside. Just because you have a lower tolerance for risk doesn't mean others are illogical, they just have a higher tolerance for risk
 
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BBSA

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I didn't assume anything, it was rhetorical. The same argument of 'a direct warning just how bad it can get' applies to almost everything in life but most people still go on with their lives.

You still risk it going to shops, I know of some people who would view that as to much risk, they get everything delivered at which point it stands outside for half a day before being wiped of and brought inside. Just because you have a lower tolerance for risk doesn't mean others are illogical, they just have a higher tolerance for risk
Correct, I don't want to risk go to town and stand in queue with hundreds of others and then get vaccinated by a person who come in close contact with many people on a daily basis.

Much safer to stay on my farm and play with my dogs.
 
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Supersoaker

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So they didn't say why?

You see, this is the kind of BS I am just fed up with. One doctor says this, another says something else. Who are we to believe?

Somehow I have managed to avoid getting this for 20 months and I have been in some very crowded indoor places with all manner of people from all walks of life. Or did I get it and didn't even know about it?

Honestly, the levels of BS are so high right now that I am more likely to die from being shot by armed security who will have to pull me off the CEO of whatever big business decides that if I don't get jabbed they won't let me in. That's not said in jest either. I am close to the end of the rope on this bullsh*t.
That's a very specific way to die, also highly unlikely.
 

Paulsie

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The science is still ambiguous on this. Yes PCR CT values (ie pharyngeal mRna load ) are comparable, but does this represent infectious virion?
This preprint non reviewed paper suggests not.

As I posted elsewhere, there was a study in Vietnam clearly showing fully vaccinated medical staff infecting one another (69 or so of them if I remember correctly)
 

Cosmik Debris

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Correct, I don't want to risk go to town and stand in queue with hundreds of others and then get vaccinated by a person who come in close contact with many people on a daily basis.

Must safer to stay on my farm and play with my dogs.

The farming areas around me are experiencing a massive increase in Covid because they get a false sense of security. They then go to town and take the workers in at the end of the month. This results in a super spreader event because they are not observing the risk mitigation measures as stringently as the town residents do. Now they all go home and don't bother with masks, social distancing and sanitising protocols on the farm again due to the false sense of security.

If you check the figures, the rural platteland areas have had a massive increase in cases.
 

Little-Mermaid

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As I posted elsewhere, there was a study in Vietnam clearly showing fully vaccinated medical staff infecting one another (69 or so of them if I remember correctly)
I wouldn't read to much into that study or the initial post which was later clarified

Results The delta variant (B.1.617.2) was identified in the majority of cases. Despite similar Ct-values, we demonstrate lower probability of infectious virus detection in respiratory samples of vaccinated HCWs with breakthrough infections compared to unvaccinated HCWs with primary SARS-CoV-2 infections. Nevertheless, infectious virus was found in 68.6% of breakthrough infections and Ct-values decreased throughout the first 3 days of illness.
Conclusions We conclude that rare vaccine breakthrough infections occur, but infectious virus shedding is reduced in these cases.
 
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