Jet-Fighter7700

Honorary Master
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Mar 12, 2008
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31,618
what did you expect from our ANC lot to do? they can barely pay their own admin staff, and barely control how Spectrum should be controlled,
giving them a power plant was simply too much for them to handle

and evidentially here are the results, we all voted for the ANC and here is our reward!
 

mpdjhb

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
545
Base load is another word for inflexible generation.

It's really a thing created to justify Nuclear to be honest.
You need sufficient generation to cater for usage. Usage climbs and drops based on the time of day. Lowest late evening through to morning. Highest at dinner time.

Large monolithic generation like Nuclear still needs to be backed up with equivalent generation in case it drops out. Similar to large scale coal.

Solar and Wind will add additional generation in smaller increments on a country wide basis. We have enough of a geographical spread to safely say its always sunny somewhere in SA during the daytime, and its always windy somewhere any day in South Africa.

Solar generation could basically cover our "base load" daytime, and then some. This leaves the evening peak.
Wind will take some of that, but our traditional go-to for that is pumped storage.
Pumped storage allows us to time shift our excess generation to another time.

Traditionally this would be overnight, then reused early day, supplemented daytime, then reused again in the evening. Generation failures mean that this isn't happening.

So, we need additional generation.

We could build additional coal, or we could add more solar or wind. Both of those options are cheaper to run than coal, cheaper to build than coal, and have little to no environmental impact (at least in comparison to coal).

No-brainer right? Sadly, coal makes money for the people sticking their fingers into the pies, so they're less interested in renewables. There are profits to be made in renewables too, but they aren't as glorious as the existing coal or diesel profits.

Anyway, we still need storage to cater for when that cheap generation isn't available.
Our current coal generation has worse reliability than solar. So that - but we need "base load" generation argument is a bit redundant when it can't even work 30% of the day.


Supplement renewables with pumped storage, CSP, and other large scale storage mechanisms, with some battery to cater for short term requirements, and you're pretty good, and at cheaper pricing than Nuclear.

Don't need to take my word for it, studies have been done in South Africa proving it already.

Renewables aren't a 100% solution, but we can easily triple or quadruple what we have without any issues, remove our non functioning coal, and have a cheaper more environmentally friendly solution.

No brainer really, our only issue is that it doesn't make financial sense for the people in control of things, cough Gwede cough, as they don't make tons of money off of it*.

* our last REIPP phase was mainly supplied by Squirrel's brother, and at costs roughly double what we're seeing in other countries for renewables. Even so, they still came in cheaper than current coal stations costs.

Nice summation - also "wave power" is predictable. We know centuries in advance when the tides will be high and low (storms of course withstanding) - and we have two oceans.... I did see a study at one or other time as to how many TWh we could generate from the oceans - but could not find it again now.

EDIT: Also add in things like ripple switches for geysers and smart meters and demand side can be managed so people do heavy things like geysers when the excess RE is high - precisely what I do at home now that I have solar - my energy use from grid is miniscule as I have adapted to use dishwasher etc when the sun shines not at night.
 

itareanlnotani

Executive Member
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Sep 14, 2008
Messages
6,767
As far as baseload goes, I remember watching some or the other engineering show a few years ago where they had a solar plant near Las Vegas that generated 24/7 by using molten salt or something. Cant remember the specifics, but that could be a decent option.

Found something about it with a quick Google.
CSP - concentrated solar power.

We have some in SA already.
 

friedpiggy

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Aug 6, 2005
Messages
1,663
CSP - concentrated solar power.

We have some in SA already.
Yeah, I was more talking about the heat storage potentials that molten salt would add to that mix. Naysayers keep harping on about baseload this and baseload that. The plant out by Vegas can generate for 10 hours using the heat from the stored salt. I think the system has a ways to go still before its commercially viable, but it shows that there are options.
 

itareanlnotani

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Messages
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Yeah, I was more talking about the heat storage potentials that molten salt would add to that mix. Naysayers keep harping on about baseload this and baseload that. The plant out by Vegas can generate for 10 hours using the heat from the stored salt. I think the system has a ways to go still before its commercially viable, but it shows that there are options.
Like I said, we literally have some in SA already, generating and contributing to the grid for a good few years
A sample:

Kathu - 100mw with 4.5hrs of storage.
Ilanga - 100mw/ 5 hrs
Kaxu one 100w / 3hrs storage
Xina one - 100mw/ 5hrs
Khi Solar One - 50mw /2hrs storage
Bokport 50mw/ 9.5 hrs storage
Redport 100mw/ 5hrs


We could have more but thats all that was awarded for CSP projects in REIPP phases.
See - https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.5117581

I guess we could start to see more now, especially since the limits have been increased to 100MW for private production, although not 100% sure if Muni's are allowed to wheel the produced power yet. That legislation is still underway, although announced a few years back.

If you're interested in CSP, this is a look at whats coming next gen.

Interestingly a recent bid for CSP was down to $34 /MWh (or R0.51c a KWhr) in Chile, with 12 hours of storage, this was being coupled with PV for 24hr provision - so those muppets continually whining about 'mah baseload!' could be silenced.


We have BEE conditions to adhere to, but it does bode well if government eventually issues another REIPP and allows for some CSP generation.

The sane thing to do would be to add another GW of CSP at those sort of prices. Construction would be 1-2 years, and we could remove another dodgy coal plant, which literally costs more than that to run.
 
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WollieVerstege

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Yeah, I was more talking about the heat storage potentials that molten salt would add to that mix. Naysayers keep harping on about baseload this and baseload that. The plant out by Vegas can generate for 10 hours using the heat from the stored salt. I think the system has a ways to go still before its commercially viable, but it shows that there are options.
Eventually geothermal will solve the question of baseload as they can run 24/7. A geothermal plant is basically the same as a nuclear power plant, with the exception that it uses the earth itself to heat the water for steam rather than a fission reactor.
Limitations on locations where they can be built are also slowly becoming less of an issue. Newer plants can also be built as closed cycle, so even though they use lots of water, it can be mostly recycled.
 

Yskasmetnstoof

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Jul 30, 2019
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1,035
The SA govt will only hear the bells ringing when the car corporations close the first car assembly plant in SA.
 

Yskasmetnstoof

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1. Someone once said that all the A students studied science, while the F students studied political 'science'.
2. This resulted in the former F students controlling everything, and employing the former A students.
3. In this relationship, the former F students decide everything, and the former A students implement. All the latter's recommendations are ignored by the former.
4. Resulting in a lot of anger and frustration.
5. Solution: Maybe the A students should switch to political 'science'.
They emigrate.
 

Yskasmetnstoof

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I'm no fan of coal and firmly believe it deserves a quick death globally but as new nuclear is even a greater stretch for SA what are the alternates as of today for large scale realiable base load considering the existing coal fleet is past expiration. Surely its best to at the very least plan for both coal and nuclear even if ground isn't broken?
It hasn't dawned on you yet then?
 

richjdavies

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Sep 9, 2013
Messages
2,100
Yeah, I was more talking about the heat storage potentials that molten salt would add to that mix. Naysayers keep harping on about baseload this and baseload that. The plant out by Vegas can generate for 10 hours using the heat from the stored salt. I think the system has a ways to go still before its commercially viable, but it shows that there are options.
Naysayers will just find the next thing... Next it will be - but seasonal storage between solar and wind. Forgetting that SAs huge geography makes seasonality less of an issue - yes in Cape Town you'll get 3-4 hours effective sun in Winter and 6 in Summer, but Gauteng is more like 5 for both...

Anyway. There are people whether through malice (paid off by Koch bothers?) or history (they only know the old ways) or incompetence / lack of imagination, cant picture a world with variable supply -- although very comfortable with uncontrolled variable demand.
 

Bigjay84

Senior Member
Joined
May 10, 2018
Messages
942
They spent all the money they stole from the last time they built power stations already ?
 
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