Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

[C4Cat]

Patently and demonstrably false, you might wanna read through some stats 101 material in more detail. You conveniently ignore the statistically sound logic I put forth in favour of your "randomize or nothing" bullcrap mantra. I actually took stats at varsity level fyi, what you are saying is simply falsehood cloaked in some basic stats terminology. You are purposely or accidentally ignoring nuance.

You didn't provide any statistically sound logic You just stated your wishful thinking

 

[C4Cat]

Spain is the last country on the face of this green earth to talk about debt and owing people money.

Maybe, but I still maintain that Catalania cannot survive without the support of both Spain and greater Europe - or at least it would be incredibly difficult for them

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

You didn't provide any statistically sound logic You just stated your wishful thinking

:crylaugh: reduce the statistical population to only reflect those that actually will yield a value, that is not wishful thinking, that is what you do if you care about the integrity of your numbers. You sure as hell do NOT start assuming which value they would have chosen when they explicitly indicated that they won't choose a value.

Do that, realise your 43% sample has just shot up to 70% plus and realise your random selection process would have no impact whatsoever on the result. When it has no impact, there is no point in crying "random selection" like a stuck record, the reality is it would make no difference.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Maybe, but I still maintain that Catalania cannot survive without the support of both Spain and greater Europe - or at least it would be incredibly difficult for them

An independent Catalonia can declare its own currency and by law dictate that all debt shall be revalued in said currency or defaulted upon. Job done, debt gone.

 

[C4Cat]

:crylaugh: reduce the statistical population to only reflect those that actually will yield a value, that is not wishful thinking, that is what you do if you care about the integrity of your numbers. You sure as hell do NOT start assuming which value they would have chosen when they explicitly indicated that they won't choose a value.

Do that, realise your 43% sample has just shot up to 70% plus and realise your random selection process would have no impact whatsoever on the result. When it has no impact, there is no point in crying "random selection" like a stuck record, the reality is it would make no difference.

Reduce the statistical population to only reflect those that actually will yield a value - I'm not sure what you're talking here, possibly stratified sampling - which is still random.

I'm not the one assuming what values non voters would have chosen. Random selection actually makes all the difference in sampling and statistics, as much as you want to pretend otherwise. Show me one source on statistics where sampling results can be accurately extrapolated to the general population in the absence of random selection. You use big words but you really haven't a clue what you're talking about.

 

[konfab]

Maybe, but I still maintain that Catalania cannot survive without the support of both Spain and greater Europe - or at least it would be incredibly difficult for them

Yet you obviously support a separate state of Palestine, which is even more dependant on Israel than Catalonia is on Spain.


You have to drop the nannying attitude and accept that maybe some people think that freedom is more important than temporary discomfort. The precise reason why Spain doesn't want Catalonia to go is because Spain's economy will collapse because they will be losing their tax cow.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

You use big words but you really haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Oh the irony in that statement is tangible

 

[rietrot]

An independent Catalonia can declare its own currency and by law dictate that all debt shall be revalued in said currency or defaulted upon. Job done, debt gone.

And then that currency crash as no one wants it. If the EU decide to economically sabotage Catalonia I almost think their only way out is to go complete commie and nationalise everything.
The only way out that isn't going to be messy for everyone is a peaceful referendum followed by reasonable negotiations with the EU as they are part of the EU at present.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

And then that currency crash as no one wants it

They can back it with gold to avoid that, although that will prompt the world powers to declare war before everyone realises the weakness of faith-based fiat.

 

[C4Cat]

Yet you obviously support a separate state of Palestine, which is even more dependant on Israel than Catalonia is on Spain.


You have to drop the nannying attitude and accept that maybe some people think that freedom is more important than temporary discomfort. The precise reason why Spain doesn't want Catalonia to go is because Spain's economy will collapse because they will be losing their tax cow.

Really? How do you figure I support a separate state of Palestine?

Anyway, when it comes to Spain and Catalania I don't care about their independence as long as they can do so with the framework of the EU. In other words I support a unified Europe - it makes no difference to me if Catalania is or isn't independent. I don't see this split as temporary discomfort though, I just don't see any possibility of an independent Catalania being successful in the absence of support from both Spain and the EU. Unless that happens I see a huge mess and destruction all around. Do you really think Catalinia could succeed if the economy of Spain collapses?

 

[Polymathic]

Really? How do you figure I support a separate state of Palestine?

Anyway, when it comes to Spain and Catalania I don't care about their independence as long as they can do so with the framework of the EU. In other words I support a unified Europe - it makes no difference to me if Catalania is or isn't independent. I don't see this split as temporary discomfort though, I just don't see any possibility of an independent Catalania being successful in the absence of support from both Spain and the EU. Unless that happens I see a huge mess and destruction all around. Do you really think Catalinia could succeed if the economy of Spain collapses?

Basically what happened was the entire Spanish economy did collapse and Catalonia is the main reason they were able come out of it.

 

[C4Cat]

Basically what happened was the entire Spanish economy did collapse and Catalonia is the main reason they were able come out of it.

Source? And how would the region cope if Spain collapses and Catalonia isn't a part of Spain?

 

[konfab]

Really? How do you figure I support a separate state of Palestine?

Wild guess.

Anyway, when it comes to Spain and Catalania I don't care about their independence as long as they can do so with the framework of the EU. In other words I support a unified Europe - it makes no difference to me if Catalania is or isn't independent. I don't see this split as temporary discomfort though, I just don't see any possibility of an independent Catalania being successful in the absence of support from both Spain and the EU. Unless that happens I see a huge mess and destruction all around. Do you really think Catalinia could succeed if the economy of Spain collapses?

Ironically, that is one of the reasons why you are seeing secessionist movements in Europe. The EU is already the tyrannical state, might as well cut out the middleman. If you have to beat people into being on the same side as you, you are not unified, so I don't know what the definition of unified looks to you.

I might also add that there were other people in history who also wanted a unified Europe dominated by Germany, Ann Frankly it wasn't a good outcome.

 

[C4Cat]

Wild guess.



Ironically, that is one of the reasons why you are seeing secessionist movements in Europe. The EU is already the tyrannical state, might as well cut out the middleman. If you have to beat people into being on the same side as you, you are not unified, so I don't know what the definition of unified looks to you.

I might also add that there were other people in history who also wanted a unified Europe dominated by Germany, Ann Frankly it wasn't a good outcome.

Yeah we'll have to agree to disagree. Europe has been at war with itself for generations and centuries, up until the establishment of the EU. There is a big difference between a Europe unified by agreements and treatise and one 'unified' by one country attempting to conquer it's neighbours. The first leads to peace, free movement and free trade, the second leads to war, destruction, despair and chaos. The former - an agreed upon unity - is the only way to avoid the latter, war. I'm pretty sure an independent Catalania would still want to be a member of the EU

 

[Polymathic]

Yeah we'll have to agree to disagree. Europe has been at war with itself for generations and centuries, up until the establishment of the EU. There is a big difference between a Europe unified by agreements and treatise and one 'unified' by one country attempting to conquer it's neighbours. The first leads to peace, free movement and free trade, the second leads to war, destruction, despair and chaos. The former - an agreed upon unity - is the only way to avoid the latter, war. I'm pretty sure an independent Catalania would still want to be a member of the EU

You seem to think Europe is stuck in 1932 for some reason.

 

[C4Cat]

You seem to think Europe is stuck in 1932 for some reason.

What makes you say that?

 

[Polymathic]

What makes you say that?

You talking about geopolitics from Pre-WWII, geopolitical situation changed a lot since then

 

[C4Cat]

You talking about geopolitics from Pre-WWII, geopolitical situation changed a lot since then

Yes, that was my point - what changed was the establishment of the EU

 

[rietrot]

Yes, that was my point - what changed was the establishment of the EU

Its not as if beter technology and the ease of communication has anything to do with less wars in Europe.

 

[C4Cat]

Its not as if beter technology and the ease of communication has anything to do with less wars in Europe.

Wars have continued fine outside of the EU. If anything, better technology and ease of communication has facilitated war (drones, etc). The main thing that has prevented war in Europe since WW2 is agreements to unite rather than fight i.e. The EU