Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

[f2wohf]

If you look at the opinion polls on the matter, the majority of people support it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence

Read all the polls in your link, the Catalan government polls (CEO) used to support it. Then, it’s extremely variable according to who does the poll.

You can’t really use that as indicator as these polls show everything and its opposite.

 

[f2wohf]

They can back it with gold to avoid that, although that will prompt the world powers to declare war before everyone realises the weakness of faith-based fiat.

That supposes to take debt to buy gold (pledging assets probably at a major discount), especially since the Catalonia government has no reserves of its own, if the independence occurs its incomes will be frozen by Madrid.

Not exactly an efficient method.

 

[f2wohf]

Basically what happened was the entire Spanish economy did collapse and Catalonia is the main reason they were able come out of it.

Catalonia’s GDP growth was actually more negative than the 8 or 9 other provinces during the Eurocrisis, including Madrid province.

Their unemployment rate is the 9th highest.

Not exactly a locomotive saving Spain during the crisis, rather thank the ECB, Germany and France for that.

Anyway, it’s not like it’s likely to happen since they have lost 78 billions euros of company value, and associated taxes in the past week.

 

[f2wohf]

Axa (insurer), Bimbo (bread), Applus (certification) moves their headquarters today.

 

[f2wohf]

Nothing will move until Monday, since the government gave Puigdemont until then to withdraw the Declaration of Independence.

Brilliant article on why the idea of independent regions is stupid in Europe since they are over 200 languages and it would jeopardize and compromise the entire safety and unity of Europe. And also why is it always the richest regions who want out...

https://elpais.com/internacional/2017/10/11/mundo_global/1507733539_710718.html

 

[Swa]

Another statistics genius who doesn't understand how random sampling works.
In order to make accurate generalizations based on a sample, the sample needs to be randomly selected or you cannot make any predictions or generalizations. The referendum was the exact opposite of random selection so no, it cannot be used to determine the will of the entire population.

Exactly, it allowed EVERYONE eligible to have a say. That's the golden standard in statistics.

*Another statistics genius who doesn't understand how statistics works.

Statistics 101 - http://www.stat.yale.edu/Courses/1997-98/101/sample.htm

If you ask a sample of South Africans if our Zulu King should be recognised, but only ask Zulu people, you may get millions of people saying Yes, even 90%, but it would hardly be representative of the population. Numbers in sampling mean nothing if it's not randomised.

You're harping on a single technique. Random sampling isn't the only one and it isn't always accurate. Phone people up without knowing their race and the Zulus are actually more likely to not really care while other races are more likely to protest against it and say no. This is known as confirmation bias according to how strongly a person feels about something - statistics 101.

Reduce the statistical population to only reflect those that actually will yield a value - I'm not sure what you're talking here, possibly stratified sampling - which is still random.

I'm not the one assuming what values non voters would have chosen. Random selection actually makes all the difference in sampling and statistics, as much as you want to pretend otherwise. Show me one source on statistics where sampling results can be accurately extrapolated to the general population in the absence of random selection. You use big words but you really haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Exactly, you don't know but feel you can still talk a bunch of crap and just throw in terms you picked up without even knowing what they mean.

Yeah we'll have to agree to disagree. Europe has been at war with itself for generations and centuries, up until the establishment of the EU. There is a big difference between a Europe unified by agreements and treatise and one 'unified' by one country attempting to conquer it's neighbours. The first leads to peace, free movement and free trade, the second leads to war, destruction, despair and chaos. The former - an agreed upon unity - is the only way to avoid the latter, war. I'm pretty sure an independent Catalania would still want to be a member of the EU

You don't know much about European history do you?

That supposes to take debt to buy gold (pledging assets probably at a major discount), especially since the Catalonia government has no reserves of its own, if the independence occurs its incomes will be frozen by Madrid.

Not exactly an efficient method.

So take someone's assets and them hold them for ransom to prove a self fulfilling point?

 

[f2wohf]

So take someone's assets and them hold them for ransom to prove a self fulfilling point?

The bank accounts of Catalonia are by every possible construction Spanish state assets, not Catalan assets...

 

[Polymathic]

Wars have continued fine outside of the EU. If anything, better technology and ease of communication has facilitated war (drones, etc). The main thing that has prevented war in Europe since WW2 is agreements to unite rather than fight i.e. The EU

you really need to read up more on the our current global economic model your statements show zero knowledge on this topic.

 

[Swa]

The bank accounts of Catalonia are by every possible construction Spanish state assets, not Catalan assets...

Except it was earned by Catalonians

 

[f2wohf]

Except it was earned by Catalonians

And ?

Legally it still belongs to Spain. That’s the only thing that matters, until they are independent and decide who it belongs to, it belongs to Spain.

Your rhetoric is actually very dangerous, according to t tomorrow the ANC can say that the money of Anglo American and BHP and Pnp was earned by black workers. Therefore it shouldn’t go to it legit owners.

 

[Swa]

And ?

Legally it still belongs to Spain. That’s the only thing that matters, until they are independent and decide who it belongs to, it belongs to Spain.

Your rhetoric is actually very dangerous, according to t tomorrow the ANC can say that the money of Anglo American and BHP and Pnp was earned by black workers. Therefore it shouldn’t go to it legit owners.

Now you're just going full retard and invoking reductio ad absurdum. Money technically and legally belongs to whoever earned it irrespective of who owns the bank. But I guess this will just be more heavyhandedness from Spain like sending in police to beat up almost a thousand peaceful voters.

 

[f2wohf]

Now you're just going full retard and invoking reductio ad absurdum. Money technically and legally belongs to whoever earned it irrespective of who owns the bank. But I guess this will just be more heavyhandedness from Spain like sending in police to beat up almost a thousand peaceful voters.

And that must be a local administration I guess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Tax_Agency

The Spanish government collected it and it is due to him, therefore he owns it, it’s the law.

Catalonia is just entitled grants as approved by the Spanish Treasury, they earned nothing.

Regarding the voters, I found a funny parallel. Everybody means in SA when the taxis strike (and even more so when their strike is illegal) and everybody on the forum calls for the police to impound and burn their taxis.

When it’s Catalan voters voting illegally at an illegal referendum, blocking the streets, you are keen to defend them.

Funny conception of the rule of law... The applicability of the law basically depends of your opinion !

 

[Swa]

And that must be a local administration I guess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Tax_Agency

The Spanish government collected it and it is due to him, therefore he owns it, it’s the law.

Catalonia is just entitled grants as approved by the Spanish Treasury, they earned nothing.

Regarding the voters, I found a funny parallel. Everybody means in SA when the taxis strike (and even more so when their strike is illegal) and everybody on the forum calls for the police to impound and burn their taxis.

When it’s Catalan voters voting illegally at an illegal referendum, blocking the streets, you are keen to defend them.

And what about it? Catalonia is the second largest net contributor to the Spanish government's financial sheet. But according to you they are just entitled to a few grants from their overlords and earned nothing? That is just laughable and just further indication of your warped view of reality.

As for the protesting, whenever there's one in SA it necessarily comes with violence and intentionally disrupting everything, like they can't achieve whatever they try to without doing so. Vastly different than people just trying to hold a peaceful referendum to establish their independence.

Funny conception of the rule of law... The applicability of the law basically depends of your opinion !

The irony here.

 

[f2wohf]

And what about it? Catalonia is the second largest net contributor to the Spanish government's financial sheet. But according to you they are just entitled to a few grants from their overlords and earned nothing? That is just laughable and just further indication of your warped view of reality.

As for the protesting, whenever there's one in SA it necessarily comes with violence and intentionally disrupting everything, like they can't achieve whatever they try to without doing so. Vastly different than people just trying to hold a peaceful referendum to establish their independence.


The irony here.

As i said, the rule of law must not be upheld at all when it’s convenient for you.

Thanks for confirming it.

 

[konfab]

Yeah we'll have to agree to disagree. Europe has been at war with itself for generations and centuries, up until the establishment of the EU. There is a big difference between a Europe unified by agreements and treatise and one 'unified' by one country attempting to conquer it's neighbours. The first leads to peace, free movement and free trade, the second leads to war, destruction, despair and chaos. The former - an agreed upon unity - is the only way to avoid the latter, war. I'm pretty sure an independent Catalania would still want to be a member of the EU

Do you think the EU isn't dominated by one country that wants to economically conquer it's neighbours? LOL.

 

[f2wohf]

Do you think the EU isn't dominated by one country that wants to economically conquer it's neighbours? LOL.

The Economist doesn’t seem to think so.

 

[konfab]

As i said, the rule of law must not be upheld at all when it’s convenient for you.

Thanks for confirming it.

So you would either be happy with Apartheid continuing because it was the law, or you would be happy with no laws as well? I can guarantee you would quite happily ignore the the rule of law when it is convenient for you as well.

 

[f2wohf]

So you would either be happy with Apartheid continuing because it was the law, or you would be happy with no laws as well? I can guarantee you would quite happily ignore the the rule of law when it is convenient for you as well.

I expected this one.

Comparing the rebellious movement of 30 something % of the richest region of the population of one of the richest countries on Earth to... the apartheid.

Catalans aren’t exactly tortured, underpaid, second class citizens you know that ?

And if they manage to get independence, every single region in Europe has the right to independence, breaking European unity, economic strength and political power. Sounds like a great plan to annihilate Europe.

There are 4 separatists movements in Spain that I can recall of, 5 in France and apparently over 200 in Europe.

But I do agree, Spain dealt badly with it and should have allowed a referendum. The separatists would most likely have lost anyway.

 

[rietrot]

I expected this one.

Comparing the rebellious movement of 30 something % of the richest region of the population of one of the richest countries on Earth to... the apartheid.

Catalans aren’t exactly tortured, underpaid, second class citizens you know that ?

And if they manage to get independence, every single region in Europe has the right to independence, breaking European unity, economic strength and political power. Sounds like a great plan to annihilate Europe.

There are 4 separatists movements in Spain that I can recall of, 5 in France and apparently over 200 in Europe.

But I do agree, Spain dealt badly with it and should have allowed a referendum. The separatists would most likely have lost anyway.

You are again outright lying about the stats. You can not claim everyone that didn't vote to be on your side.

 

[f2wohf]

You are again outright lying about the stats. You can not claim everyone that didn't vote to be on your side.

38% of the people eligible to vote expressed a yes. We don’t know how many more yes would have voted either.

It’s the only stat we can use until there is a referendum where the no voters vote too, since they were asked to boycott this one on purpose.

To say it again, this referendum was horses*** and means nothing statistically or democratically.

Most of the opinion polls say the no would have won but we can’t rely on these either.

Anyway it will be sorted soon: army in Catalonia next week or Puigdemont withdraws the DUI.