Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

[rietrot]

38% of the people eligible to vote expressed a yes. We don’t know how many more yes would have voted either.

Oky this is probably it for me because I really struggle to dumb myself down to this level in order to explain it for you.

So lets use your logic. Only 177547 people voted no out of 5313564.
That's 3.3% that want to stay in Spain.
(Stats from wikipedia)

Now to be fair add the 450000 unionsist that protested the vote as illegitimate.
(Number from Reuters article on protest that happened last weekend)
177547+450000= 627547 / 5313564 * 100=11.8 % of registered voters expressed some kind of willingness to stay in spain.
38%>11.8%

This calculation is favourable towards the NO side as it doesn't take into account the same people that protested could have voted no in the referendum so there is duplicates and it assumes all the protestors are registered voters which is highly unlikely.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

The Economist doesn’t seem to think so.

:crylaugh: the millisecond Macron steps too far across the line Merkel / Germany will bitch slap him back in line, The Economist must have been paid handsomely for some PR that pretends Macron / France has any clout whatsoever.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

they were asked to boycott this one on purpose

Abstinence is a vote of consent by silence, by willingly removing themselves from the result they tacitly accept the result.

Anyone who boycotted the vote must be removed from any calculations w.r.t. the voting population, they literally chose to remove themselves from the voting population and no amount of wishful thinking or number manipulation can change that fact.

 

[rietrot]

Abstinence is a vote of consent by silence, by willingly removing themselves from the result they tacitly accept the result.

Anyone who boycotted the vote must be removed from any calculations w.r.t. the voting population, they literally chose to remove themselves from the voting population and no amount of wishful thinking or number manipulation can change that fact.

Even if you give those that abstained the vote, the benefit of the doubt and count everyone(some even twice) who in some way through protest action showed they don't want to leave spain, the remainers still lose with an overwhelming landslide.

 

[f2wohf]

Even if you give those that abstained the vote, the benefit of the doubt and count everyone(some even twice) who in some way through protest action showed they don't want to leave spain, the remainers still lose with an overwhelming landslide.

Mybroadband counting

Most of the polls say otherwise, the remainers have been threatened for months (just look for articles on it, people have been slapped for expressing their wish to remain !

Can we anyway agree that without a proper and valid referendum, the exercise is useless and total horses*** ?

 

[f2wohf]

Abstinence is a vote of consent by silence, by willingly removing themselves from the result they tacitly accept the result.

Anyone who boycotted the vote must be removed from any calculations w.r.t. the voting population, they literally chose to remove themselves from the voting population and no amount of wishful thinking or number manipulation can change that fact.

Not abstinence, boycott. There’s a difference...

Why move to vote to something illegal since it’s anyway illegal ? It would be pretty stupid...

 

[Polymathic]

And ?

Legally it still belongs to Spain. That’s the only thing that matters, until they are independent and decide who it belongs to, it belongs to Spain.

Your rhetoric is actually very dangerous, according to t tomorrow the ANC can say that the money of Anglo American and BHP and Pnp was earned by black workers. Therefore it shouldn’t go to it legit owners.

Well that's entire reason behind the referendum.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Not abstinence, boycott. There’s a difference...
Why move to vote to something illegal since it’s anyway illegal ? It would be pretty stupid...

There is no difference, they made the choice not to participate, hence there is no point in wondering if they would have voted 'yes' or 'no'. They voted 'please ignore me'.

 

[f2wohf]

There is no difference, they made the choice not to participate, hence there is no point in wondering if they would have voted 'yes' or 'no'. They voted 'please ignore me'.

Participating legitimizes the referendum, which is exactly the opposite of the no camp’s goal.

It seems to be a very difficult concept to understand for you.

If a real and lawful referendum was organized, the no camp would go vote (as they did in the 2011 non binding consultation if I remember correctly).

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Participating legitimizes the referendum, which is exactly the opposite of the no camp’s goal
It seems to be a very difficult concept to understand for you.
If a real and lawful referendum was organized, the no camp would go vote (as they did in the 2011 non binding consultation if I remember correctly).

Over 90% of the population wanted the referendum to happen and it was NEVER going to be a legal one given Spain's gestapo tactics.

There is no 'no camp' that was simply opposed on the ground of legality, at best they could represent 10%; that is the consistent number across every poll.

Seems all of that is very difficult for to to comprehend as you pretend the boycotting group could feasibly be a majority for the 'no camp' (they simply can't) and you pretend a legal referendum is even possible (it simply isn't).

Funny you mention the 2011 consultation which had a much more pathetic turnout than 2014 or 2017, yet fail to mention 2014 which was legal until the Spanish government saw the way the wind was blowing and unilaterally declared it illegal. That vote had a similar turnout and result as 2017 and by all practical accounts was legal.

 

[Polymathic]

Over 90% of the population wanted the referendum to happen and it was NEVER going to be a
legal one given Spain's gestapo tactics.

There is no 'no camp' that was simply opposed on the ground of legality, at best they could represent 10%; that is the consistent number across every poll.
Seems all of that is very difficult for to to comprehend as you pretend the boycotting group could feasibly be a majority for the 'no camp' (they simply can't) and you pretend a legal referendum is even possible (it simply isn't).

Funny you mention the 2011 consultation which had a much more pathetic turnout than 2014 or 2017, yet fail to mention 2014 which was legal until the Spanish government saw the way the wind was blowing and unilaterally declared it illegal. That vote had a similar turnout and result as 2017 and by all practical accounts was legal.

Pretty sure majority would of voted "No" because of common sense but Spain's handling of it pushed them into the "Yes" camp.

 

[f2wohf]

Over 90% of the population wanted the referendum to happen and it was NEVER going to be a legal one given Spain's gestapo tactics.

There is no 'no camp' that was simply opposed on the ground of legality, at best they could represent 10%; that is the consistent number across every poll.

Seems all of that is very difficult for to to comprehend as you pretend the boycotting group could feasibly be a majority for the 'no camp' (they simply can't) and you pretend a legal referendum is even possible (it simply isn't).

Funny you mention the 2011 consultation which had a much more pathetic turnout than 2014 or 2017, yet fail to mention 2014 which was legal until the Spanish government saw the way the wind was blowing and unilaterally declared it illegal. That vote had a similar turnout and result as 2017 and by all practical accounts was legal.

Then I’ll let you support the legitimacy of
the independence.

Even the Catalan Parliament is against the declaration of independence, even the mayor of Barcelona (people who are separatists and far more aware of the situation than you or I will ever be).

It’s going to be fun with the army in next week... I guess that as a good keyboard separatist, you won’t be in the streets to support the separatists against the Spanish tyranny !

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Then I’ll let you support the legitimacy of
the independence

More than happy to.

Even the Catalan Parliament is against the declaration of independence

Is that why the vast majority of them were giving a standing ovation to the Catalan president this week? :wtf:

I guess that as a good keyboard separatist, you won’t be in the streets to support the separatists against the Spanish tyranny !

Why would I be? I'm not a Catalan, this isn't my fight, I merely support their (and anyone's) right to self determination. Curiously though it isn't your fight either, yet you feel comfortable dooming people to oppression while they're desperately crying out and protesting for freedom for over a decade ...

 

[f2wohf]

More than happy to.


Is that why the vast majority of them were giving a standing ovation to the Catalan president this week? :wtf:


Why would I be? I'm not a Catalan, this isn't my fight, I merely support their (and anyone's) right to self determination. Curiously though it isn't your fight either, yet you feel comfortable dooming people to oppression while they're desperately crying out and protesting for freedom for over a decade ...

It is somehow a little my fight, i do have a Spanish passport in addition of the french one although I consider myself 90% french.

I had no doubt that you didn’t care about European nations. At this pace, we’ll end up with 6237 Nations at the UN in 20 years if each province with a distinct language and culture across the world wants its independence. Very convenient for business, for traveling, not igniting conflicts at all.

The standing ovation was when he proposed to negotiate, not the DUI.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

At this pace, we’ll end up with 6237 Nations at the UN in 20 years if each province with a distinct language and culture across the world wants its independence

From your lips to God's ears!

Very convenient for business, for traveling, not igniting conflicts at all

Yes, because travel, business and peace in general was so much better in the soviet union ...

The standing ovation was when he proposed to negotiate, not the DUI.

The same group was applauding loudly when he stated outright the result of the vote is legitimate and Catalonia now has the right to assert its sovereignty i.e. they were supporting his every word, including statements of independence being Catalonia's right.

 

[Swa]

As i said, the rule of law must not be upheld at all when it’s convenient for you.

Thanks for confirming it.

LOL

I expected this one.

Comparing the rebellious movement of 30 something % of the richest region of the population of one of the richest countries on Earth to... the apartheid.

Catalans aren’t exactly tortured, underpaid, second class citizens you know that ?

And if they manage to get independence, every single region in Europe has the right to independence, breaking European unity, economic strength and political power. Sounds like a great plan to annihilate Europe.

There are 4 separatists movements in Spain that I can recall of, 5 in France and apparently over 200 in Europe.

But I do agree, Spain dealt badly with it and should have allowed a referendum. The separatists would most likely have lost anyway.

So YOU decide when people are justified to rebel and when not? I don't have a problem with every region being ruled separately. More localised government, more accountability. If Spain held a referendum it would most likely have resulted in the outcome we saw as that's what the majority of polls indicated, why they didn't allow it.

Not abstinence, boycott. There’s a difference...

Why move to vote to something illegal since it’s anyway illegal ? It would be pretty stupid...

They might have voted yes as well but wanted a legal referendum first. You keep dodging the questions I asked you. You claim 200 municipalities weren't able to vote. These aren't boycotts but being prevented to vote. So these would have been among the 'yes' and 'no' votes with likely the same 90%/10% outcome. How can you claim them to only count for the 'no' votes?

 

[f2wohf]

LOL


So YOU decide when people are justified to rebel and when not? I don't have a problem with every region being ruled separately. More localised government, more accountability. If Spain held a referendum it would most likely have resulted in the outcome we saw as that's what the majority of polls indicated, why they didn't allow it.


They might have voted yes as well but wanted a legal referendum first. You keep dodging the questions I asked you. You claim 200 municipalities weren't able to vote. These aren't boycotts but being prevented to vote. So these would have been among the 'yes' and 'no' votes with likely the same 90%/10% outcome. How can you claim them to only count for the 'no' votes?

I don’t decide when people can rebel or not. Making a parallel between the apartheid and Catalonia is at best insulting for the apartheid’s victim, in one case there is loss of life, infringement of basic human rights. In the other, it’s only political aspirations. See the international community’s support for Catalonia, check the one against apartheid, that would be an indicator.

More local government = more accountability ? This concept seems to have failed dismally in Spain since local government is very powerful and corruption is extremely spread. Just a few examples, billions of euros laundered in Marbella https://elpais.com/elpais/2013/10/04/inenglish/1380883545_783869.html

You can also check the Gurtel case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Spain

France or UK have much less local government and much less corruption. Catalonia is already an autonomous region governed according to their own laws, and still have plenty of corruption.

What did the polls indicate ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence
CEO poll (in favor/against format): against
CEO poll (independent state/federal state/autonomous/region): here you need to add federal, autonomous and region which all mean to remain in Spain, it’s against a second time.

Catalans approve so much the declaration of independence that if local elections were to be held now (which is likely of Article 155 is invoked monday), the separatists would lose seats. https://www.elespanol.com/espana/20171009/252975565_0.html

I never said the 200 municipalities would have voted no. I just said 200 could not vote (yes or no), never that these 200 should be counted as NO. This is pure invention. Everybody should be allowed to vote before a voting result can even start to be considered.

AND in addition, as another flaw the no camp boycotted an illegal referendum (which I would have done if I was in Catalonia and which relatives living there did).

With the 200, it would still probably be 90/10, you are right, and it would still be an illegal referendum where people could vote twice, with illegal non transparent ballot boxes and with a low turnout.

Therefore again this referendum is in no way accurate, representative and even less valid and the government should allow a proper referendum.

You would cry for international support, riot against the corrupt IEC if any election in South Africa was to be held this way and considered as legal. But it’s in Catalonia, so it doesn’t matter.

 

[Swa]

I don’t decide when people can rebel or not. Making a parallel between the apartheid and Catalonia is at best insulting for the apartheid’s victim, in one case there is loss of life, infringement of basic human rights. In the other, it’s only political aspirations. See the international community’s support for Catalonia, check the one against apartheid, that would be an indicator.

But you do. You can't justify it because apartheid is in your mind worse. And I don't care a fig about the international community who's looking out for their own interests. Apartheid had some powerful international supporters as well till they themselves collapsed.

More local government = more accountability ? This concept seems to have failed dismally in Spain since local government is very powerful and corruption is extremely spread. Just a few examples, billions of euros laundered in Marbella https://elpais.com/elpais/2013/10/04/inenglish/1380883545_783869.html

More incentive to split. Switzerland would be a much better example.

What did the polls indicate ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence
CEO poll (in favor/against format): against
CEO poll (independent state/federal state/autonomous/region): here you need to add federal, autonomous and region which all mean to remain in Spain, it’s against a second time.

Oh yes, two cherry picked polls. Let's just use them above most independent polls which showed both that most are in favour of independence and want an official referendum.

Catalans approve so much the declaration of independence that if local elections were to be held now (which is likely of Article 155 is invoked monday), the separatists would lose seats. https://www.elespanol.com/espana/20171009/252975565_0.html

More mindless rhetoric.

I never said the 200 municipalities would have voted no. I just said 200 could not vote (yes or no), never that these 200 should be counted as NO. This is pure invention. Everybody should be allowed to vote before a voting result can even start to be considered.

You count everyone who did not vote as boycotting the election when in fact most probably just couldn't vote. And how will everyone be allowed to vote if Spain doesn't want to sanction an official referendum?

AND in addition, as another flaw the no camp boycotted an illegal referendum (which I would have done if I was in Catalonia and which relatives living there did).

So did many in the 'yes' camp because they want a legal referendum. Fact is you have no idea how the people who boycotted it or couldn't vote would have voted if it was sanctioned. They didn't even turn up in large numbers to protest a split. Heck the protest against Brexit was much larger. We only have those who managed to vote to go by.

With the 200, it would still probably be 90/10, you are right, and it would still be an illegal referendum where people could vote twice, with illegal non transparent ballot boxes and with a low turnout.

The turnout was great in the areas where people could vote. At a glance it looks better than last year's SA elections. Of course it could be done better and legally but we all know who is to thank for that not being the case.

Therefore again this referendum is in no way accurate, representative and even less valid and the government should allow a proper referendum.

It may not be 100% accurate and no referendum ever is but it was representative enough to draw a conclusion that in a legal referendum the outcome would probably result in a split. I'm glad we are on the same page w.r.t. a legal referendum.

You would cry for international support, riot against the corrupt IEC if any election in South Africa was to be held this way and considered as legal. But it’s in Catalonia, so it doesn’t matter.

Incorrect. Catalonia is being hampered by Spain. But if they can manage independence and keep Spain out they can hold a legal referendum. My only stake in this is that any region or nation which desires independence should have it.

 

[f2wohf]

It may not be 100% accurate and no referendum ever is but it was representative enough

Just a few comments.

I never asked you to agree with the international community’s as being a fair rule of need for intervention or for legitimacy. I use it and it’s only my opinion.

Not cherry picked polls, the polls recognized as being the most accurate, done by the Catalan government (who is pro independence).

The turnout and the municipalities not able to vote are only two of the 20+ issues of irregularities.

Local government might work in Switzerland where it is a system for centuries but different culture, different outcomes, it doesn’t work in Spain who is culturally used to a much more centralized government (even though much more decentralized than France for example). You can fight all you want on local government, globally it’s never been proven to work better.

I tried to look for yes voters boycotting the referendum - even in pro independence Catalan newspapers I can’t find. Please provide proof.

It’s not that it’s not 100% accurate, there’s fraud, there’s no respect for the electoral rules. It’s 0% complete and worth the same than a poll. You are either compliant or not.

Speculating and fighting on a supposed imaginary result is stupid and a waste of time since it didn’t and won’t happen.

 

[f2wohf]

They are all going to jail very soon. They have used since 2015 public funds to develop separatist communication networks and a parallel administration.

https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/10/14/actualidad/1508003716_257633.html