Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

[Swa]

I'm through arguing with you on this.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

They are all going to jail very soon

Wanna bet? There will be blood in the streets if they're arrested.

 

[f2wohf]

Wanna bet? There will be blood in the streets if they're arrested.

Misuse of public funds is something the government has been cracking on very heavily in the past 10 years.

If it was only political (they only get judged for the referendum), I wouldn’t bet on a jail sentence.

But now that it involves money, the government cannot let them go while tens of other politicians are in jail for the same crimes.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

But now that it involves money, the government cannot let them go while tens of other politicians are in jail for the same crimes.

The hordes in the streets who got beaten up on voting day will not be appreciating that distinction. Arrests will lead to violence, count on it.

 

[f2wohf]

The hordes in the streets who got beaten up on voting day will not be appreciating that distinction. Arrests will lead to violence, count on it.

Don’t forget that there are like 6 million Catalans, the government still has to answer to the other 40 something million Spanish !

Pissing off let’s say 3 million Catalans versus pissing off 10 million Spanish is a choice very easy to make.

 

[f2wohf]

I think this is called delusion.

The ECB and the EU say no but Catalonia says yes, we’ll still be part of the ECB.

However, in a sign that Puigdemont may just force Rajoy to activate the "nuclear option", late on Sunday Spain's Efe news agency reported that the Catalan government believes the region would continue within the European Union and euro zone if it declared independence, which would require the creation of a Central Bank of Catalonia (BCC) "as a monetary authority of the new country", with a staff of 500 employees.

While it is unclear if the proposition is a bluff, EFE cited a document that was prepared by the department of the Vice Presidency and Economy and Finance, directed by Oriol Junqueras, which was obtained by EFE, and which detailed what the Catalan economy would look like in a hypothetical republic. It was also unlear if there is any particular role for bitcoin or some other altcurrency in Catalonia's immedia future, if for some reason, the ECB decided that the breakaway territory would no longer be part of the eurozone, leaving a major question mark over what its future currency would be.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...s-out-catalonia-proposes-its-own-central-bank

 

[rietrot]

I think this is called delusion.

The ECB and the EU say no but Catalonia says yes, we’ll still be part of the ECB.



http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...s-out-catalonia-proposes-its-own-central-bank

That's just how these stuff work. ECB and EU has taken a side and using threats and a hard line to try and force catalonia not to split from Spain, but once that is done they'll have to soften their stance.

 

[konfab]

I expected this one.

Comparing the rebellious movement of 30 something % of the richest region of the population of one of the richest countries on Earth to... the apartheid.

Catalans aren’t exactly tortured, underpaid, second class citizens you know that ?

And if they manage to get independence, every single region in Europe has the right to independence, breaking European unity, economic strength and political power. Sounds like a great plan to annihilate Europe.

There are 4 separatists movements in Spain that I can recall of, 5 in France and apparently over 200 in Europe.

But I do agree, Spain dealt badly with it and should have allowed a referendum. The separatists would most likely have lost anyway.

Except they are having their rights to freedom of speech and freedom of assembly trampled on. But who needs those..right?

 

[f2wohf]

Except they are having their rights to freedom of speech and freedom of assembly trampled on. But who needs those..right?

Where has the freedom of speech been reduced ?

Freedom of assembly is always subject to prior authorization and not disruption of the public space.

Blocking what’s app groups is not blocking the freedom of speech, far from it.

I’m speaking from a legal point of view, not moral.

 

[f2wohf]

That's just how these stuff work. ECB and EU has taken a side and using threats and a hard line to try and force catalonia not to split from Spain, but once that is done they'll have to soften their stance.

No.

Belgium, France, Italy, Spain, Germany at some extent all have separatist movements that they want to refrain and the majority of seats at the ECB.

Should the independence happen, they will make sure it’s a massive failure and that Catalans suffer.

 

[konfab]

Where has the freedom of speech been reduced ?

Freedom of assembly is always subject to prior authorization and not disruption of the public space.

Blocking what’s app groups is not blocking the freedom of speech, far from it.

I’m speaking from a legal point of view, not moral.

MADRID (Reuters) - Armed police in Spain have raided several print works and newspaper offices in Catalonia in recent days in a hunt for voting papers, ballot boxes and leaflets to be used in an Oct. 1 independence referendum which Madrid vehemently opposes.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-boxes/police-in-catalonia-hunt-for-hidden-ballot-boxes-in-bid-to-foil-referendum-idUSKCN1BQ2MZ

The raids come a day after the Guardia Civil confiscated referendum documents from the offices of a private delivery firm in the Catalan city of Terrassa. More than 1.5m referendum leaflets and posters have also been seized.

The Catalan high court said that police acting on a judge’s orders had searched 42 premises on Wednesday – including six regional government offices – adding that 20 people were being investigated for alleged disobedience, abuse of power and embezzlement related to the referendum.

The regional government confirmed that Josep Maria Jové, secretary general of economic affairs and an aide to the Catalan vice-president, and Lluis Salvado, the secretary of taxation, were among those arrested.

The Spanish interior ministry said that police had confiscated nearly 10m ballot papers. Polling station signs and documents for electoral officer

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/20/spain-guardia-civil-raid-catalan-government-hq-referendum-row

No violations of freedom of speech whatsoever.

 

[f2wohf]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-boxes/police-in-catalonia-hunt-for-hidden-ballot-boxes-in-bid-to-foil-referendum-idUSKCN1BQ2MZ


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/20/spain-guardia-civil-raid-catalan-government-hq-referendum-row

No violations of freedom of speech whatsoever.

Incentivizing to do something illegal is not part of freedom speech. (I.e. pushing to vote at an illegal vote)

The newspapers were not prevented from publishing, the people are not forbidden to say they want independence (as demonstrated by the Catalan Parliament and gatherings in front of it last Tuesday).

They are only forbidden to organize and promote an illegal referendum.

It’s perfectly compliant with the ECHR (which again is not part of the EU, so not political).

 

[rietrot]

Should the independence happen, they will make sure it’s a massive failure and that Catalans suffer.

No doubt. I have already said as much. Then we will see the true spirit of the catalonian people. If they are going to play victims or get on with their independence and make a successful self sustainable country.

 

[thestaggy]

See the international community’s support for Catalonia, check the one against apartheid, that would be an indicator.

There is a bigger picture. The support for Catalan independence is weak due to politics and money.

For example; If Belgium came out in support it could embolden the separatist movements in their own backyard, Flanders and Wallonia. No country with separatists in their own backyard would support this.

Furthermore, German banks are heavily invested in Spain along with the EU as a whole propping them up amid their ongoing financial difficulties, so a united and stable Spain is in everyone's best interests.

Very different to anti-apartheid sentiment, something which had no tangible impact on those countries.

We can draw similarities with the recent Kurdish referendum in Iraq. The likes of Kosovo and Israel came out in full support talking about self-determination (yes yes, I am aware of the irony of this with regards the Palestinian issue) but on the other hand the USA and the western world in general were less than impressed. Why? A happy and stable Iraq, Iran, Turkey and Syria are in the best interests of the USA and her allies. It would be a political blunder for the US to support Kurdish independence, even though it is the right thing to do.

 

[f2wohf]

There is a bigger picture. The support for Catalan independence is weak due to politics and money.

For example; If Belgium came out in support it could embolden the separatist movements in their own backyard, Flanders and Wallonia. No country with separatists in their own backyard would support this.

Furthermore, German banks are heavily invested in Spain along with the EU as a whole propping them up amid their ongoing financial difficulties, so a united and stable Spain is in everyone's best interests.

We can draw similarities with the recent Kurdish referendum in Iraq. Israel came out in full support talking about self-determination (yes yes, I am aware of the irony of this with regards the Palestinian issue) but on the other hand the USA and the western world in general were less than impressed. Why? A happy and stable Iraq, Iran, Turkey and Syria are in the best interests of the USA and her allies.

Exactly, without forgetting that Germany has its own separatist movements in Bavaria (and in another small region I think) and hasn’t been an unified state for very long.

Italy with the North League, Sicilia/Sardinia
France with Britain, Savoy and Corsica...

Allowing it is a bad idea for everybody.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Allowing it is a bad idea for the status quo.

ftfy, you can't claim it would be bad for "everybody" if nobody even knows what it would look like. imo a proper shakeup is just the medicine the EU needs, but it is bad for the establishment hence they'll fight to prevent it.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41632084

The leader of the Spanish region of Catalonia is just hours away from a deadline set by the central government to clarify whether or not he has declared independence.

If he confirms that he has, he will have until Thursday to withdraw the declaration or Catalonia, which has substantial autonomy, faces the prospect of direct rule from Madrid.

The deadline given to Carles Puigdemont is 10:00 local time (08:00 GMT).

So 1 hour 50 minutes to go, bring it!

 

[Sl8er]

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41632084


So 1 hour 50 minutes to go, bring it!

I hope they officially get the ball rolling on their independence.

 

[f2wohf]

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41632084


So 1 hour 50 minutes to go, bring it!

Letter of Puigdemont has been sent.

He refuses to say if he declared independence or not and just asks for dialogue.

I think the 155 is coming as Madrid was clear, you confirm that independence is not declared or you get dissolved.

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/10/16/catalunya/1508134244_135653.html

 

[f2wohf]

Rajoy says that the response is unacceptable.

The 155 will be activated Thursday should they not withdraw (the wait between Monday and Thursday is a legal requirement to give a last chance to comply).