Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

[f2wohf]

The letter only speaks of repression and wants dialogue but is clearly silent on the DUI (which was a precondition for Madrid).

Letter in Spanish here (i’m actually surprised that Puigdemont wrote in Spanish and not in Catalan seeing how he didn’t care about disrespecting the king) https://ep00.epimg.net/descargables/2017/10/16/0bb31483791d25946b4176616eed01e7.pdf

 

[rietrot]

Rajoy says that the response is unacceptable.

The 155 will be activated Thursday should they not withdraw (the wait between Monday and Thursday is a legal requirement to give a last chance to comply).

Good that Spain think it can force the issue. This should make declaring independence so much easier, now that Spain is again refusing to negotiate and come to a middle ground and offer a proper legal referendum. It makes the leave guys look moderate and fair.
Let's see if this guy has the backbone to go through with it and stand up to the bullies in Spain.

 

[C4Cat]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-boxes/police-in-catalonia-hunt-for-hidden-ballot-boxes-in-bid-to-foil-referendum-idUSKCN1BQ2MZ


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/20/spain-guardia-civil-raid-catalan-government-hq-referendum-row

No violations of freedom of speech whatsoever.

And yet you still seem to think the results of the referendum are valid?

 

[f2wohf]

The head of the Mossos (Trapero), of the Catalan Parliament and of Òmnium are in court today.

Trapero will probably not come out free and be sent to jail while waiting for the trial.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politic...ares-trapero-jordi-sanchez-jordi-cuixart.html

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

And yet you still seem to think the results of the referendum are valid?

Kind of like many of the "pro-unity" people here seem to think the legality or turnout of the referendum has any bearing at all on a people that was literally beaten by the police for merely wanting to vote in the first place?

 

[konfab]

And yet you still seem to think the results of the referendum are valid?

No I didn't

What I said that the results of that referendum should be taken seriously to consider a proper referendum on the matter.

If independence is so bad for these people, Spain should just give them what they want and make sure that they cannot rejoin Spain for 100 years.

 

[C4Cat]

Some people here seem to forget or not know that catalans are Spanish citizens with the same rights as any other Spanish citizen, they are not a separate oppressed people with no representation in the Spanish government.

 

[f2wohf]

The VP of the Government will answer officially at 10:30.

The minister of justice has already confirmed that the answer is not legally valid as it does not answer the question (was independence declared).

 

[C4Cat]

Kind of like many of the "pro-unity" people here seem to think the legality or turnout of the referendum has any bearing at all on a people that was literally beaten by the police for merely wanting to vote in the first place?

No, not like that at all...

 

[f2wohf]

Artur Mas (ex President of the Generalitat) has deposited 2.2 of the 5.25 million euros bail he is required to deposit for organizing the 2014 referendum.

The referendum was organized illegally with public funds and the courts required him to repay the fiscus.

He has asked for an extension of time to find the remaining 3 millions.
https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/10/16/catalunya/1508147833_346257.html

 

[konfab]

Some people here seem to forget or not know that catalans are Spanish citizens with the same rights as any other Spanish citizen, they are not a separate oppressed people with no representation in the Spanish government.

Which are conveniently ignored if needs be.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/10/12/spain-police-used-excessive-force-catalonia

Spain needs to take a look at how the UK dealt Scottish independence.

Following the SNP's victory in the 2011 election,[45][46] which gave the party an overall majority in the Scottish Parliament, First Minister Alex Salmond stated his desire to hold a referendum "in the second half of the parliament" which would place it in 2014 or 2015.[47] In January 2012, the UK Government offered to provide the Scottish Parliament with the specific powers to hold a referendum, providing it was "fair, legal and decisive".[48][49] Negotiations continued between the two governments until October 2012, when the Edinburgh Agreement was reached.[50] The Scottish Independence Referendum (Franchise) Act 2013 was passed by the Scottish Parliament on 27 June 2013 and received Royal Assent on 7 August 2013.[51] On 15 November 2013, the Scottish Government published Scotland's Future, a 670-page white paper laying out the case for independence and the means through which Scotland might become an independent country.[52]

After a protracted period of negotiation, a public debate between Salmond and Better Together leader Alistair Darling was arranged.[53] On the morning prior to the televised debate, a joint statement, pledging greater devolved powers to Scotland in the event of a dominant "no" vote, was signed by Prime Minister David Cameron (leader of the Conservative Party), Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg (leader of the Liberal Democrats), and Labour Party leader Ed Miliband.[54]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence#Independence_referendum.2C_2014
Gu

 

[f2wohf]

Trapero (head of the Mossos) is free under a 40000 euros bail, passport confiscated, prohibition of leaving Spain and biweekly visits at the police station.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Spain needs to take a look at how the UK dealt Scottish independence

What, breed them out with prima nocta?

 

[C4Cat]

Which are conveniently ignored if needs be.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/10/12/spain-police-used-excessive-force-catalonia

They were using excessive force against Spanish citizens, it wasn't specifically against an oppressed minority.

 

[konfab]

They were using excessive force against Spanish citizens, it wasn't specifically against an oppressed minority.

In postmodern language that you love so much: what right do you have to determine that they are oppressed or not. You are just victim blaming at this point. You should check your nationalistic privilege.

 

[f2wohf]

In postmodern language that you love so much: what right do you have to determine that they are oppressed or not. You are just victim blaming at this point. You should check your nationalistic privilege.

To play victim blaming can be very easy on the other side too, Spanish are actually victims or near xenophobia in the past year.

You could say that the Spanish non separatists living in Catalonia are the victims.

Their kids are brainwashed by nationalistic propaganda at school, they get shouted at or even insulted and called a fascist when expressing their views.

Separatists have never had to live that.

If you ask a Catalan Mosso a direction or help in the street in Spanish and not in Catalan, a good part of them won’t help you (which 1) is illegal 2) is ridiculous). It’s like a cop accepting to speak only Zulu or Xhosa when you sleep only English.

 

[C4Cat]

In postmodern language that you love so much: what right do you have to determine that they are oppressed or not. You are just victim blaming at this point. You should check your nationalistic privilege.

LOL, I'm not blaming at all, don't know where you came up with that. I'm just pointing out the victims of police brutality where Spanish citizens. Many of the protesters may not even have been Catalan, you can't tell just by looking you know.

 

[konfab]

To play victim blaming can be very easy on the other side too, Spanish are actually victims or near xenophobia in the past year.

You could say that the Spanish non separatists living in Catalonia are the victims.

Their kids are brainwashed by nationalistic propaganda at school, they get shouted at or even insulted and called a fascist when expressing their views.

Separatists have never had to live that.

If you ask a Catalan Mosso a direction or help in the street in Spanish and not in Catalan, a good part of them won’t help you (which 1) is illegal 2) is ridiculous). It’s like a cop accepting to speak only Zulu or Xhosa when you sleep only English.

LOL. There are people in Catalonia who pretty much had what you describe done to them by an actual dictator.

 

[f2wohf]

LOL. There are people in Catalonia who pretty much had what you describe done to them by an actual dictator.

During Franco... the rest of Spain was subject to the same thing.

My great grandfather flew Spain during the civil for being against the Falange and was condemned to death for it, which is how he ended up in France.

Catalans don’t have the monopoly of persecution under Franco, everybody against him was equally persecuted !

 

[konfab]

During Franco... the rest of Spain was subject to the same thing.

My great grandfather flew Spain during the civil for being against the Falange and was condemned to death for it, which is how he ended up in France.

Catalans don’t have the monopoly of persecution under Franco, everybody against him was equally persecuted !

Was the use of Spanish banned under Franco?