Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

f2wohf

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Trapero (head of the Mossos) is free under a 40000 euros bail, passport confiscated, prohibition of leaving Spain and biweekly visits at the police station.

Sorry I made a mistake, it is Laplana, another Mosso who is free under a 40000 euros bail.

For Trapero, it will be known in the next hour. The prosecutor asked for jail without possibility of bail for him.
 

Swa

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No.

Belgium, France, Italy, Spain, Germany at some extent all have separatist movements that they want to refrain and the majority of seats at the ECB.

Should the independence happen, they will make sure it’s a massive failure and that Catalans suffer.
Yes cut off your nose to spite your face. That makes a lot of sense.
 

thestaggy

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Some people here seem to forget or not know that catalans are Spanish citizens with the same rights as any other Spanish citizen, they are not a separate oppressed people with no representation in the Spanish government.

And? Who says oppression is a prerequisite for self-determination.

There is no valid moral argument against this. It just won't get any support because it will trigger many other separatists across Europe and an unstable Spain is not in the best interests of the European financial institutions propping it up at the moment.
 

f2wohf

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And? Who says oppression is a prerequisite for self-determination.

There is no valid moral argument against this. It just won't get any support because it will trigger many other separatists across Europe and an unstable Spain is not in the best interests of the European financial institutions propping it up at the moment.

It’s slightly more complex. The right to self determination is not automatic, there are many condition precedents to be fulfilled and it is cross linked with territorial integrity. It’s quite a mess in international law.

It’s not just the majority of an area voting.

http://www.e-ir.info/2014/05/02/does-self-determination-entail-an-automatic-right-to-secession/
 

f2wohf

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Yes cut off your nose to spite your face. That makes a lot of sense.

Cut your toenail you mean. Catalonia was already around 1% of the EU GDP, now that all the companies are gone, it’s probably much less.

Nothing worth staying awake at night !
 

C4Cat

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And? Who says oppression is a prerequisite for self-determination.

There is no valid moral argument against this. It just won't get any support because it will trigger many other separatists across Europe and an unstable Spain is not in the best interests of the European financial institutions propping it up at the moment.

Nobody said oppression is a prerequisite for self-determination - my comment was more generally aimed at posters who said, for example, "yet you feel comfortable dooming people to oppression while they're desperately crying out and protesting for freedom for over a decade ... " Yes... NarrowMindFtw actually said that!
 

rietrot

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It’s slightly more complex. The right to self determination is not automatic,

That's whats wrong with the world. It should be automatic. The complexity and BS law are just excuses for useless people to lord over other people.
 

thestaggy

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It’s slightly more complex. The right to self determination is not automatic, there are many condition precedents to be fulfilled and it is cross linked with territorial integrity. It’s quite a mess in international law.

It’s not just the majority of an area voting.

http://www.e-ir.info/2014/05/02/does-self-determination-entail-an-automatic-right-to-secession/

The article makes mention of the Montevideo Convention, which is used as a guideline for the basic requirements of statehood and these same requirements were taken in to consideration when discussing the future of Yugoslavia and her successor states.

The basic requirements are (quoted from the article);

...a permanent population, defined territory, a government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other states.

A concentrated population is there. There is a defined territory and there is a semi-autonomous government in place that has political capacity, until now even recognised by Madrid. Catalonia is a de facto state, but there are political forces that will prevent this going any further and the article seems to corroborate what I have said.

It is evident that recognition (especially from powerful international community members), a clearly political act, has proved to be decisive in certain situations

It is evident that states practice reflected whether or not national interests were at stake, since those that opposed secession were often the same ones worried by secessionist movements at home (Spain and Cyprus, inter alia)

The EU, Russia and China will not recognise an independent Catalonia because doing so will validate secessionists in places like Chechnya, Flanders and Xinjiang. For Spain it would hit even harder as recognising Catalonia likely triggers the Basques.

The national integrity argument is also seemingly flawed as its only brought up when it suits the power players.

Russia, for example, has trapped itself in a self-spun web over this. Russia signed off on Abkhazian and South Ossetian independence because Georgia mobilised their military against them and the Russians claimed independence would guarantee their safety. However, Russia refused to recognise Kosovo because the Kosovars we no longer deemed to be under threat from Serbs, then the Russians went and fiddled in Ukraine and ''accepted'' Crimea's secession from Ukraine. Meanwhile, how many times has Russia gone to war with the Chechens (Safety argument)?

Its all politics. The EU will be the same. The power players don't want to stamp on one another's toes nor do they want to be the ones that are compromised by either losing territory or encouraging further secessionist movements at home or elsewhere.

There is a fragile balance between the principles of territorial integrity and self-determination, and careful considerations are needed before applying them to international affairs. Dismissing self-determination in too simplistic terms – as it was often done before Kosovo, to preserve territorial integrity – generated great and widespread unfairness.

In this case, ''territorial integrity'' is just bollox-speak for maintaining the status quo at the old boy's club.
 
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Swa

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It’s slightly more complex. The right to self determination is not automatic, there are many condition precedents to be fulfilled and it is cross linked with territorial integrity. It’s quite a mess in international law.

It’s not just the majority of an area voting.

http://www.e-ir.info/2014/05/02/does-self-determination-entail-an-automatic-right-to-secession/
Of course. It's all arbitrary like most human laws so no real surprise. The guy with the biggest gun always wins.
 

Swa

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Cut your toenail you mean. Catalonia was already around 1% of the EU GDP, now that all the companies are gone, it’s probably much less.

Nothing worth staying awake at night !
And the second biggest net contributor to the Spanish fiscus, you keep forgetting that, so not as insignificant in fact. Once Catalonia doesn't sink and they find their own allies the EU will have no choice.

That's whats wrong with the world. It should be automatic. The complexity and BS law are just excuses for useless people to lord over other people.
+1
 

Swa

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Nobody said oppression is a prerequisite for self-determination - my comment was more generally aimed at posters who said, for example, "yet you feel comfortable dooming people to oppression while they're desperately crying out and protesting for freedom for over a decade ... " Yes... NarrowMindFtw actually said that!
It's a net contributor while still fending for themselves. So in a sense they are oppressed. Funny how the same people who will cry over "colonial" oppression are on the opposite side when it comes to Catalonia.
 

f2wohf

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And the second biggest net contributor to the Spanish fiscus, you keep forgetting that, so not as insignificant in fact. Once Catalonia doesn't sink and they find their own allies the EU will have no choice.


+1

Probably third by now since they’ve lost the headquarters.

I’ve read it’s 2 billions of local corporate tax lost for Catalonia only with the 8 listed companies who left. Excluding the jobs linked (and income tax), property taxes, rates, VAT and so on. If you put all these taxes together and the 540 major companies who left, it’s actually scary.

What I meant is that if s*** hits the fan, at an EU scale it doesn’t matter, Spain will get help to balance its loss while Catalonia would be subject to a boycott and left isolated.

I don’t think it will reach this stage though. Article 155 with (in the worst case) forceful removal of the local assembly and government will suffice.
 

NarrowBandFtw

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First arrests
[video=youtube;QcjVbs6pSH0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcjVbs6pSH0[/video]
 

NarrowBandFtw

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and as predicted, the consequence
[video=youtube;qxIkMQWZOBg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxIkMQWZOBg[/video]
 

f2wohf

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On the economic boycott starting:

- Apparently, Spaniards (who are the biggest buyers of Catalan products obviously) are massively boycotting Catalan retail brands and products;
- Up to 4 billion euros a day is leaving Catalan banks to Spanish;
- 691 companies have moved their headquarters;
- In the recent days, around 150 requests per day to move the headquarters have been received by the Spanish CIPC.
- The real estate market has completely frozen.
 

f2wohf

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Rajoy proposed to withhold the application of Article 155 if the Catalan government calls for early elections.

The crisis estimated to cost 12 billion euros in lost taxes.

A major lottery company is leaving Catalonia today.

Car sales in Catalonia went down by 30% in 2 weeks.
 

rietrot

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Having early elections would actually be a good way to have a real legal referendum. They should make it all about leaving if they win. Now the people have seen what the eventual outcome will be and how they will be bullied by Spain and the EU and since this was Spains idea they would find it harder to challenge the outcome. Call Spains bluff.
 

mercurial

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Catalonia president Puigdemont says he is ready to declare independence as Spain deadline passes

Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont has threatened to explicitly declare independence if no talks are offered, in a letter to Spain's prime minister.

Spain had threatened to take direct control of the autonomous region if Puigdemont failed to meet a 10am deadline to clarify his intentions.

The measure falls under Article 155 of Spain's 1978 Constitution, but has never been used in the four decades since democracy was restored at the end of Gen. Francisco Franco's dictatorship.

Catalans would consider the application of the measure an “invasion” of the region's self-government, while Spain's central authorities are portraying it as an undesired move, yet a necessary one, to restore legality after Puigdemont's government pushed ahead with a banned referendum that violated the country's constitution.

More than 40 percent of Catalonia's 5.5 million eligible voters cast ballots in the illegal 1 October referendum as police used violence to try to enforce a court order to stop it from going ahead. Opponents boycotted the vote.

Catalan officials say that hundreds of people were injured in police violence, while Spanish authorities say hundreds of police officers were also hurt and the use of force was proportional to the resistance they met.

The separatists declared an overwhelming victory despite the boycott by opponents and on the grounds that it was illegal and lacked basic guarantees such as an independent electoral board.

Spain's government has said it would be willing to hold off on applying Article 155 if the Catalan separatist leader were to call a snap regional election. But Catalan officials have ruled that out.

The Catalan government's international affairs director Raul Romeva told reporters in Brussels that Catalonia's banned 1 October secession referendum gave the region's separatist government a mandate to declare independence from pain.

PDeCAT's Pascal said that the only election on the table would be a vote to elect a constituent assembly in the next few months once the path to independence gets underway.

“We need to defend what Catalan political nationalism has created over the years,” Pascal told reporters. “We need to defend our institutions, language, culture, schools and regional police.”
 
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