Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

[f2wohf]

The Government says that the goal is to keep as much as possible of the 180 politicians, 333 civil servants and 150 heads of SOE in place, but every single one who has not acted legally will be dismissed.

https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/10/22/actualidad/1508683527_461737.html

PS: I thought the companies would be boycotted for moving their headquarters. This company increased it sales by 275% since moving out of Catalonia.
http://www.abc.es/economia/abci-ven...sede-fuera-cataluna-201710220205_noticia.html

 

[Swa]

EVERY no. Actually there’s been little protesting activity this week end. Catalans (even separatists) know it’s over. A lot of separatist leaders (including the ex head of the Catalan Parliament who has organized this referendum) have said that the conditions are not fulfilled for an independence right now.

Dictatorial ? Article 155 is an article of the constitution they approved at more than 90%. Catalonia was actually the second province (after Andalucía) with the highest rate of approval of the constitution...

They had their own police force (the Mossos) whose head is in provisional liberty and indicted for secession. This police force has sworn allegiance to the crown and has been taken over by the national police.

It is still a dictatorial policy that hasn't been enforced in decades and that was under dictatorship. They already got flack from the 'no' camp for how they handled the referendum with violence. This is just going to turn more of Spain's own people against them.

 

[f2wohf]

It is still a dictatorial policy that hasn't been enforced in decades and that was under dictatorship. They already got flack from the 'no' camp for how they handled the referendum with violence. This is just going to turn more of Spain's own people against them.

It is actually a copy of Article 37 of the German constitution who is also Article 100.1 of the Austrian, 126 of the Italian one and 234.1 of the Portuguese one so it’s far from an exception.

Applied under dictatorship ? Franco died in 1975, this provision has been created under the constitution of 1978 (who was approved by referendum and by over 90% of the Catalans), under the elected government of Adolfo Suarez who was the first elected prime minister.

In addition, Franco’s Spain was a centralized country, while Juan Carlos’ Spain is constituted by autonomous communities. Having an article 155 in a centralized state would be like having a 5th wheel in a car: totally useless (hence why France for example doesn’t have an article 155). It became necessary because of the autonomous statutes that appeared in the newly democratic Spain. Your knowledge of Spain is really dismal.

Hasn’t been applied in decades ? In 1989 and almost in 2006 where a Royal Decree 421/2006 was enough in the end. It is an exceptional measure to regain control of local governments gone rogue. SA has actually the same type of provisions. And the Catalan DUI is an exceptional situation justifying it.

Dictatorial ? Again there’s nothing more democratic than applying the democratically created laws (that the Catalan authorities blatantly disregarded). Selective enforcement of the law would be what is undemocratic (such as the NPA and JZ). They are unhappy with it ? They can win elections and change the law, that’s how democracies work.

The Spanish people is absolutely not against Article 155, please read the Spanish news once in your life !

My Facebook is actually full of people reposting the King’s speech and bashing at the Catalans, that’s how Spanish feel.

PS: According to the last polls, 68% of Catalans are in favor of new local elections (that Puigdemont is rejecting).

 

[Swa]

You misinterpret everything I say so there's no use discussing with you.

Actually I'm in favour of elections. Make it part and parcel of winning that they become independent. That way there's no way Spain can declare the referendum illegal.

 

[f2wohf]

You misinterpret everything I say so there's no use discussing with you.

Actually I'm in favour of elections. Make it part and parcel of winning that they become independent. That way there's no way Spain can declare the referendum illegal.

I don’t know what’s there to misinterpret, word by word:

- dictatorial policy: debunked
- enforced under dictatorship: debunked
- turn more of Spain’s own people against them: debunked many times.

Should there be elections, the separatists would actually lose seats and the majority according to all the polls (even the Catalan government polls). PdeCat (Puigdemont’s party) would shrink from 29 to 18 seats giving the lead to ERC who would have 43/44 seats.

 

[Swa]

I don’t know what’s there to misinterpret, word by word:

- dictatorial policy: debunked
- enforced under dictatorship: debunked
- turn more of Spain’s own people against them: debunked many times.

Should there be elections, the separatists would actually lose seats and the majority according to all the polls (even the Catalan government polls). PdeCat (Puigdemont’s party) would shrink from 29 to 18 seats giving the lead to ERC who would have 43/44 seats.

Only in your mind, so let me break it down for you. The article is not very well worded and only two paragraphs long. In it you'll find the words "regional government". Catalonia is more than a regional government as there's an article guaranteeing it's autonomy. Invoking the article would trash this and at the same time its use to force a locally elected government out would trash democracy. Of course all governments have a similar clause as they are all invested in protecting their own interests so that doesn't really further your argument. Spain's use of it would be tantamount to one country using its force against another.

Don't be so reliant on your supposed 'no' camp. There was already opposition to Spain's use of force and violence as most regarded it as unnecessary. If local elections were held now they would probably win by a landslide as most polls indicated and even the latest referendum when made most favourable to your 'no' camp showed. But you keep ignoring facts for opinion so it's no use debating that with you.

 

[f2wohf]

Only in your mind, so let me break it down for you. The article is not very well worded and only two paragraphs long. In it you'll find the words "regional government". Catalonia is more than a regional government as there's an article guaranteeing it's autonomy. Invoking the article would trash this and at the same time its use to force a locally elected government out would trash democracy. Of course all governments have a similar clause as they are all invested in protecting their own interests so that doesn't really further your argument. Spain's use of it would be tantamount to one country using its force against another.

It’s funny because the article does not mention once “regional government” but mentions three times autonomous community (four with the title).

Exactly the opposite of what you say.

http://www.congreso.es/consti/constitucion/indice/titulos/articulos.jsp?ini=155&tipo=2

Again, get your facts straight and read before commenting please.

Your understanding of law is also close to zero, the Catalan government has broken the constitution which makes that the government invokes the constitution (supreme law) to suspend some laws (inferior laws) temporarily. It is exactly how law works. The Catalan officials who have not broken the law will not be replaced.

Would you say that impeaching Zuma or Trump would be illegal because they’ve been elected (that’s what you say for Spain) ?

Dismal, I was saying.

 

[Swa]

It’s funny because the article does not mention once “regional government” but mentions three times autonomous community (four with the title).

Exactly the opposite of what you say.

http://www.congreso.es/consti/constitucion/indice/titulos/articulos.jsp?ini=155&tipo=2

Again, get your facts straight and read before commenting please.

Your understanding of law is also close to zero, the Catalan government has broken the constitution which makes that the government invokes the constitution (supreme law) to suspend some laws (inferior laws) temporarily. It is exactly how law works. The Catalan officials who have not broken the law will not be replaced.

Would you say that impeaching Zuma or Trump would be illegal because they’ve been elected (that’s what you say for Spain) ?

Dismal, I was saying.

Well every article I've read so far says regional government. That would be akin to a province which falls under the SA government. It would be different if SA allowed a bunch of settlers to live elsewhere and then afterwards we tell them how we want them to rule it would no longer apply. Could be that something was lost in translation.

There's still the article on autonomy which was approved in 2006. Article 155 would thus not have foreseen such a form of autonomy and should not apply. Law isn't such a simple matter as you make it out to be.

The issue here isn't trying a politician for committing a crime and then that's it. It's misusing a statute to interfere in the democratic process.

 

[f2wohf]

Well every article I've read so far says regional government. That would be akin to a province which falls under the SA government. It would be different if SA allowed a bunch of settlers to live elsewhere and then afterwards we tell them how we want them to rule it would no longer apply. Could be that something was lost in translation.

There's still the article on autonomy which was approved in 2006. Article 155 would thus not have foreseen such a form of autonomy and should not apply. Law isn't such a simple matter as you make it out to be.

The issue here isn't trying a politician for committing a crime and then that's it. It's misusing a statute to interfere in the democratic process.

Article 155 foresaw an autonomic statute because pactos autonomicos were always planned and as such were not negotiated at the time of the constitution’s approval.

All the regions have always had a degree of autonomy (it’s just that Catalonia has a bit more since 2006). The pactos autonomicos of 1981 and 1992 define these and all have been tested (1981, 1992 and 2006) with the regional high courts and the Constitutional court.

The statute of autonomy of 2006 is a law, not part of the constitution. Any law relating to an autonomous community (name of the regions in Spain) can be paused until the order is restored when Article 155. Therefore, the 2006 statute of autonomy can perfectly be suspended until new elections occur.

Luckily the government did not go this far and did not ask for its suspension to the senate.

I spent my last year of LLB in exchange in Spain and did my LLM in Spain, so I’m pretty much aware of the Spanish law...

The next steps are that the president of the Senate requests the measures to be applied from the government, such measures will be presented to the Catalan government who will be allow to comment on it. Then the Senate will vote on the measures.

The other ways would have been to invoke the state of emergency law of the national security laws but that would involve the army and the physical occupation of Catalonia why would probably not be a good idea.

 

[Cius]

These Catalonians are gonna be the new poster child for the phrase cutting off your nose to spite your face. Even if they do get independence, their economy will be so broken as a result they will envy Latvia I am guessing.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

These Catalonians are gonna be the new poster child for the phrase cutting off your nose to spite your face. Even if they do get independence, their economy will be so broken as a result they will envy Latvia I am guessing.

Spain is bankrupt beyond comprehension, all of Spain should already be envying Latvia ...

 

[rietrot]

These Catalonians are gonna be the new poster child for the phrase cutting off your nose to spite your face. Even if they do get independence, their economy will be so broken as a result they will envy Latvia I am guessing.

Somethings are worth the sacrifice. People have died for liberty in the past. Just think we could've still been a British colony in line with Australia and New Zealand but those stupid boere wanted independence.

 

[f2wohf]

Spain is bankrupt beyond comprehension, all of Spain should already be envying Latvia ...

Duh ?

Some Spanish banks have been bankrupt but that’s pretty much it, and it’s been sorted for years.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/business/spain-europe-economy-recovery-unemployment.html

 

[Cius]

A Spain in an economic crisis is still a lot better than a poor eastern EU country. Quality of life was still very high even in the midst of their crisis. Catalonia will be a different story. If they declare independance the EU will cut them off economically, and politically. Economies cannot operate anymore in isolation, heck just look at North Korea. Their industry, wealth, and quality of life will plummet if they go.

 

[konfab]

These Catalonians are gonna be the new poster child for the phrase cutting off your nose to spite your face. Even if they do get independence, their economy will be so broken as a result they will envy Latvia I am guessing.

So let them be. Let them make their own mistakes.

They are an economically productive people, they will be fine. Knowing your tax money goes to people who don't send police to beat you when you try and vote is a massive incentive IMO.

 

[konfab]

A Spain in an economic crisis is still a lot better than a poor eastern EU country. Quality of life was still very high even in the midst of their crisis. Catalonia will be a different story. If they declare independance the EU will cut them off economically, and politically. Economies cannot operate anymore in isolation, heck just look at North Korea. Their industry, wealth, and quality of life will plummet if they go.

Spain will lose its tax cow and an engine of its economy. Which will cause them to go into unfathomable debt. Which could very well bring down the whole European monetary area.

 

[f2wohf]

So let them be. Let them make their own mistakes.

They are an economically productive people, they will be fine. Knowing your tax money goes to people who don't send police to beat you when you try and vote is a massive incentive IMO.

Taxes should rather go to people who indoctrinate kids at school, have no respect or tolerance for people speaking other languages, intimidate people in favor of remaining in Spain.

Sorry but I have no respect whatsoever for either side. They both act like bullies and are heavily repressive.

http://www.dw.com/en/in-catalonia-language-and-identity-go-hand-in-hand/a-41049784

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Duh ?

Some Spanish banks have been bankrupt but that’s pretty much it, and it’s been sorted for years.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/business/spain-europe-economy-recovery-unemployment.html

Good god, try and look at raw data every now and then instead of swallowing whatever agenda is being fed to you:
https://tradingeconomics.com/spain/government-debt-to-gdp

Yes, Spain is debt ridden beyond belief, without incessant can kicking and perpetually taking on yet more debt they are entirely FUBAR.

 

[f2wohf]

Spain will lose its tax cow and an engine of its economy. Which will cause them to go into unfathomable debt. Which could very well bring down the whole European monetary area.

Catalonia is 1% of the EU GDP

Spain doesn’t rely only on Catalonia and its debt is pretty low compared to other EU countries (keep in mind that 1300 companies and all Catalonian listed companies have moved out of Catalonia), bringing from now on income to other Spanish provinces. This includes the company of the cousin of the Catalan president...

The debt of the local government of Catalonia is actually the highest in Spain, Catalonia will have to take this with them if they want independence...

Madrid has actually taken over Catalonia recently, Navarra is also heavily productive as is Valencia.

 

[f2wohf]

Funny article on why taxes are higher in Catalonia than other regions. It’s simply been imposed by the local government and is spent by the local government. https://cincodias.elpais.com/cincodias/2017/09/22/midinero/1506104171_119244.html

Another one on why Madrid will overcome Catalonia’s GDP this year (they are at 18.9 vs 19% of the national GDP and Madrid grows faster since decades) and the GDP per capita is already at 136% of the national average in Madrid vs 119% in Catalonia. https://cincodias.elpais.com/cincodias/2017/10/24/midinero/1508862006_987731.html