Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

[Swa]

Article 155 foresaw an autonomic statute because pactos autonomicos were always planned and as such were not negotiated at the time of the constitution’s approval.

Right...

Luckily the government did not go this far and did not ask for its suspension to the senate.

Because they won't get away without a severe backlash.

I spent my last year of LLB in exchange in Spain and did my LLM in Spain, so I’m pretty much aware of the Spanish law...

Yet lawyers are never in agreement on any law. Why I say it's not such a simple matter as you make it out to be.

These Catalonians are gonna be the new poster child for the phrase cutting off your nose to spite your face. Even if they do get independence, their economy will be so broken as a result they will envy Latvia I am guessing.

Easy ways to rectify that.

Spain is bankrupt beyond comprehension, all of Spain should already be envying Latvia ...

Yup, Catalonia has been a major support for Spain.

Catalonia is 1% of the EU GDP

Yet Catalonia is still the second largest contributor to the Spanish economy. If it wasn't for Madrid and Catalonia Spain would be in the same boat as Greece.

 

[f2wohf]

Right...


Because they won't get away without a severe backlash.


Yet lawyers are never in agreement on any law. Why I say it's not such a simple matter as you make it out to be.


Easy ways to rectify that.


Yup, Catalonia has been a major support for Spain.


Yet Catalonia is still the second largest contributor to the Spanish economy. If it wasn't for Madrid and Catalonia Spain would be in the same boat as Greece.

Why would the constitution plan autonomic communities then ? It’s just that there was a timeframe allowed to negotiate the autonomic pacts as per the transition laws.

It’s not a matter of lawyer’s agreement, why do you think the separatists didn’t challenge the matter in court ? It’s clear cut in this case and has been upheld by the Constitutional Court.

Read my other posts, Catalonia has more debt than the other Spanish communities and not much more taxes (such excess taxes go to the local, not national government).

Actually Madrid is expected to overtake Catalonia this year as Madrid’s growth has been much faster and Madrid’s GDP per capita is already way higher (136% vs 119%) than Catalonia’s one. And Navarra.

We’re still expecting your backlash, they must be preparing it very hard since almost a month.

 

[konfab]

Catalonia is 1% of the EU GDP

You don't need need a nuke to knock down a house of cards. Are you telling me the EU is a bedrock of financial security?

 

[f2wohf]

You don't need need a nuke to knock down a house of cards. Are you telling me the EU is a bedrock of financial security?

It wouldn’t nuke anything, Spain would still have 81% of its GDP (actually more since 1500 companies including 8 listed have moved out of Catalonia).

The PIGS crisis and the subprime crisis had much stronger effects on much higher amounts and the EU came out of it.

 

[f2wohf]

Feel no love for the Spanish to be honest. Only two races irritate me more than any other even in South Africa, is Spanish and ****ing Italians. I have worked extensively with the latter, and the former, they are just fence sitting idiots.

It would be a nationality, not a race.

 

[Polymathic]

Catalonia is 1% of the EU GDP

Spain doesn’t rely only on Catalonia and its debt is pretty low compared to other EU countries (keep in mind that 1300 companies and all Catalonian listed companies have moved out of Catalonia), bringing from now on income to other Spanish provinces. This includes the company of the cousin of the Catalan president...

The debt of the local government of Catalonia is actually the highest in Spain, Catalonia will have to take this with them if they want independence...

Madrid has actually taken over Catalonia recently, Navarra is also heavily productive as is Valencia.

You think Navarra will stay a part of Spain if Catalonia secede? Push come to shove the Basque will take their secession to an entire new level. What the Catalans and Spanish are doing now is playing a game of chicken, the Catalan government want the same level of autonomy of Navarra this is their way of forcing the issue.

 

[konfab]

EU came out of it.

You really think Spain losing 19% of its GDP isn't going to do anything? Their strong and robust economy can easily take such a beating...

 

[f2wohf]

You think Navarra will stay a part of Spain if Catalonia secede? Push come to shove the Basque will take their secession to an entire new level. What the Catalans and Spanish are doing now is playing a game of chicken, the Catalan government want the same level of autonomy of Navarra this is their way of forcing the issue.

The Basque Country is split between France and Spain. It would be even more complex.

And only part of Navarra is basque, most of the Basque Country is the Basque Country.

Navarra has less autonomy than Catalonia. The Basque Country’s autonomy is closer to the Catalan statute of autonomy.

Anyway, it’s not an hypothesis, Spain would wipe out Catalonia out of the map before it secedes.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

You really think Spain losing 19% of its GDP isn't going to do anything? Their strong and robust economy can easily take such a beating...

I'm more impressed that he actually believes the EU came out of it ... I guess that is why Draghi is buying up every bond in existence to artificially boost the markets, because the EU came out of it ...

 

[f2wohf]

I'm more impressed that he actually believes the EU came out of it ... I guess that is why Draghi is buying up every bond in existence to artificially boost the markets, because the EU came out of it ...

As do Russia, China, USA, UK, Japan, Switzerland and pretty much every country with a meaningful currency.

The only major country not doing it is India.

But it must be because of Spain right ?

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

As do Russia, China, USA, UK, Japan, Switzerland and pretty much every country with a meaningful currency

What a crock of shyte, your list is the entire list with one mistake, Russia is NOT buying bonds at anywhere near the rate of the rest, and China/US/UK/EU/Japan and Switzerland are the entire it. No other nation on earth is replicating that insane fever pitch level of bullshytery to boost stock markets and pretend all is fine.

Funny enough I didn't comment on Spain's role at all, I merely pointed out the absurdity of your claim that the EU came out of a crises they are still in despite a decade of trying.

 

[f2wohf]

I never mentioned the rate of purchase, you seemed to single out the ECB’s QE while almost every major central bank does it.

Yet the FED’s asset/liability ratio is much worse than the ECB’s one...

https://www.yardeni.com/pub/peacockfedecbassets.pdf

China is pretty much cheating on this by transforming central bank debt into government debt http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cwe.12118/abstract

Anyway, this is off topic.

 

[Polymathic]

The Basque Country is split between France and Spain. It would be even more complex.

And only part of Navarra is basque, most of the Basque Country is the Basque Country.

Navarra has less autonomy than Catalonia. The Basque Country’s autonomy is closer to the Catalan statute of autonomy.

Anyway, it’s not an hypothesis, Spain would wipe out Catalonia out of the map before it secedes.

You right genocide worked for Spain in the past especially in the Americas.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

I never mentioned the rate of purchase

But I did:

I guess that is why Draghi is buying up every bond in existence

what rate would be implied by buying "every bond in existence"? A low rate or a high rate of purchase?

Anyway, this is off topic.

Somewhat off topic, the EU and Spain's fiscal position is certainly relevant to a Catalonia that wants to break away from at least one of the two. Fact is Spain is not in great shape, nor is the EU, an independent Catalonia might just have a shot at a better future if they play their cards right.

You want back on topic though: what time is the Catalan parliament's session today? An official declaration or surrender is widely expected to come from that session.

 

[Polymathic]

But I did:

what rate would be implied by buying "every bond in existence"? A low rate or a high rate of purchase?


Somewhat off topic, the EU and Spain's fiscal position is certainly relevant to a Catalonia that wants to break away from at least one of the two. Fact is Spain is not in great shape, nor is the EU, an independent Catalonia might just have a shot at a better future if they play their cards right.

You want back on topic though: what time is the Catalan parliament's session today? An official declaration or surrender is widely expected to come from that session.

The real question is "When is Greece about to default on their next debt repayment?"

That would of been a much better time for the Catalans to run this referendum then they would have real leverage.

 

[f2wohf]

5pm.

Puigdemont agrees to withdraw the DUI under 4 conditions:
- free the Jordis (Sanchez and Puixart);
- not apply the 155;
- take the Guardia Civil out of Catalonia;
- no prosecutions.

He’s basically trying to save himself.

 

[Polymathic]

5pm.

Puigdemont agrees to withdraw the DUI under 4 conditions:
- free the Jordis (Sanchez and Puixart);
- not apply the 155;
- take the Guardia Civil out of Catalonia;
- no prosecutions.

He’s basically trying to save himself.

Looks like Spain won this game of chicken.

 

[f2wohf]

Looks like Spain won this game of chicken.

Even Mas (Puigdemont’s predecessor who organizes the referendum) said from the start that the DUI was a mistake.

Without any international support, it just cannot work.

All the recent new states have had massive international support (Timor, South Sudan, Kosovo...).

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Puigdemont agrees to withdraw the DUI under 4 conditions:
- free the Jordis (Sanchez and Puixart);
- not apply the 155;
- take the Guardia Civil out of Catalonia;
- no prosecutions

Source? What a spineless little cnut :crylaugh:

 

[Polymathic]

Even Mas (Puigdemont’s predecessor who organizes the referendum) said from the start that the DUI was a mistake.

Without any international support, it just cannot work.

All the recent new states have had massive international support (Timor, South Sudan, Kosovo...).

I think is was a ploy to get more autonomy btw Kosovo not recognised by the UN