Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

[F1 Fan]

Is this not as simple as getting more than 50% of the population to vote in favor of leaving? Surely once that happens, nothing else matters?

 

[f2wohf]

have just been watching vids of this, absolute madness. police breaking a womans hands on camera, wtf.

so about 43% of people voted, of which 90% of them voted for independence.

imagine the outrage if they then decided to join up with russia. :crylaugh:

Actually 43% of the voters of 700 municipalities. There are another 200 municipalities who didn’t vote at all and which are not counted here.

 

[f2wohf]

Is this not as simple as getting more than 50% of the population to vote in favor of leaving? Surely once that happens, nothing else matters?

1) the referendum was not legal
2) the referendum did not allow every Catalan to vote (only 700 out of 900 municipalities could vote)
3) only 90% of 43% of the voters of the 700 voted yes
4) the no voters did not go to vote since the referendum was illegal

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Is this not as simple as getting more than 50% of the population to vote in favor of leaving? Surely once that happens, nothing else matters?

Not really. It depends on the circumstances, legality, credibility/integrity of the electoral process etc.

 

[f2wohf]

I read that there are two options now:

1) The national government takes over the province and appoints administrators instead of the local government (this is a provision of the constitution)

2) dissolve the Catalan local government and call for early local elections.

 

[Ninja'd]

1) The national government takes over the province and appoints administrators instead of the local government (this is a provision of the constitution)

No one expects the Spanish Acquisition.

 

[f2wohf]

No one expects the Spanish Acquisition.

It has happened for corrupt and bankrupt municipalities and also one that went rogue and even though the mayor had to leave his position because of a court order but never did and had the municipal council in his pockets.

 

[f2wohf]

There were more yes votes than voters in 71 municipalities.

The referendum was clearly manipulated...

 

[konfab]

Regardless of the legality of said referendum, Spain's actions against those people have given them the best possible reason to leave.

Regardless of what you think of Molymeme, he has a good breakdown of the history of the problem.
[video=youtube;FRU-CL9HNW8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRU-CL9HNW8[/video]

 

[f2wohf]

Except that Spain would be ready to go to war rather than let them leave.

It’s simply non negotiable for Spain and Catalan leaders have absolutely no support since the EU countries support Spain (partly to not wake up and give hope to their own internal separatist movements).

 

[konfab]

Is this not as simple as getting more than 50% of the population to vote in favor of leaving? Surely once that happens, nothing else matters?

It is more complex than that. Spain didn't even allow a non-binding or a mock referendum on the matter.

On 14 October, Artur Mas proposed a "process of citizen participation" as an alternative to the original referendum.[22] The Spanish government announced that it would also block this effort by appealing to the Constitutional Court, which decided to hear the Spanish government's case on 4 November 2014, and provisionally suspended the vote. The Catalan Government, however, pushed forward with the "citizen participation" process, in defiance of the Constitutional Court,[23] and voting took place as planned on 9 November 2014.

The Spanish government essentially didn't even want people to discuss it. That is a violation of freedom of speech. So much for constitutional rights lol.

 

[AstroTurf]

Spain has too much to lose.

Barcelona is like a monthly cheque for Spain.

 

[konfab]

have just been watching vids of this, absolute madness. police breaking a womans hands on camera, wtf.

so about 43% of people voted, of which 90% of them voted for independence.

imagine the outrage if they then decided to join up with russia. :crylaugh:

I think they would be even more outraged if Catalonia became part of the UK :crylaugh: Gibraltar and Catalonia.. Spain would probably declare war on the UK if they did that

 

[konfab]

No modern and democratic government would ever turn to oppression and tyranny. Those silly Americans and their 2nd amendment hey.

 

[rietrot]

Except that Spain would be ready to go to war rather than let them leave.

It’s simply non negotiable for Spain and Catalan leaders have absolutely no support since the EU countries support Spain (partly to not wake up and give hope to their own internal separatist movements).

That's wrong from Spain not the Catalans. Using violence to force people to stay in your club shouldn't be acceptable.

 

[Vrotappel]

90% of 2.26 million voters (while there are 5.3 millions) voted yes.

712 of the 948 municipalities participated in the vote, the voters of the other 236 being excluded from voting.

Doesn’t sound that democratic. The result is way under 50%...

Eish brush up on your stats. The 90% is a clear indicator of what the total population will vote.

Those that did not vote were most probably not voting fearing for violence from the Spanish police. You seem to forget that the Police tried to stop people from voting.

 

[Cius]

The bigger issue is economic. That region of Spain has gotten a lot of investment in terms of industrialisation over time. Thing is the whole country contributed sometimes to that investment. Now that the region is richer than the rest of Spain, it wants independence so that it can have all that money to itself.

It would be like Gauteng saying we get a lot less of the tax than we give, so we want independence. Very different to say Limpopo calling for independence when they are net consumers of tax.

Funny how the guys wanting independence are never the areas sucking up more tax than they give. They also tend to forget that during the time when they built up that industrial base money was often diverted to the area from the rest of the country to get it industrialised. Infrastructure costs a lot after all.

Personally, I am with the Spanish government on this one. That being said I don't think the violence is warranted. That seemed excessive.

 

[Vrotappel]

The bigger issue is economic. That region of Spain has gotten a lot of investment in terms of industrialisation over time. Thing is the whole country contributed sometimes to that investment. Now that the region is richer than the rest of Spain, it wants independence so that it can have all that money to itself.

It would be like Gauteng saying we get a lot less of the tax than we give, so we want independence. Very different to say Limpopo calling for independence when they are net consumers of tax.

Funny how the guys wanting independence are never the areas sucking up more tax than they give. They also tend to forget that during the time when they built up that industrial base money was often diverted to the area from the rest of the country to get it industrialised. Infrastructure costs a lot after all.

Personally, I am with the Spanish government on this one. That being said I don't think the violence is warranted. That seemed excessive.

Gauteng as an example does not really work. Gauteng did not take anything from the rest of the country for its development.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Gauteng as an example does not really work. Gauteng did not take anything from the rest of the country for its development.

The workers?

 

[OrbitalDawn]

View attachment 467459
No modern and democratic government would ever turn to oppression and tyranny. Those silly Americans and their 2nd amendment hey.

Forget the comic sans?