Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

[Arthur]

I have no idea what you are on about.

Quite evidently.

Far Eastern Scotland not known for grasp of irony.

 

[Arthur]

Also chuckleworthy is Valle de Arab.

 

[Hamish McPanji]

Quite evidently.

Far Eastern Scotland not known for grasp of irony.

Nothing ironic about it. It covers all bases, and notifies the Catalan authorities that it will not be smooth sailing if they decide to still go ahead.

 

[Arthur]

Nothing ironic about it. It covers all bases, and notifies the Catalan authorities that it will not be smooth sailing if they decide to still go ahead.

Woosh.

 

[f2wohf]

Also chuckleworthy is Valle de Arab.

Arán sorry ! Spelling mistake.

 

[f2wohf]

The head of the Catalan police did resign voluntarily.

 

[Swa]

Please show me where I tip toe ? Autonomic pacts were foreseen and planned by the constitution. The revision of 2006 wasn’t but is still compliant with the constitution and 155. For example the statute of autonomy of Castille La Mancha is not approved yet and still in Parliament, it’s region by region.

Yet you ask why the constitution would "plan autonomic communities then." Seems you aren't exactly sure that they were foreseen and nobody can really say they were.

Actually I didn’t know it but the separatist parties challenged the application of 155 and lost. The courts are independent (which is why Puigdemont’s “guarantees” were impossible to grant).

Courts don't always act independently especially when the future of the country is at stake.

What contributions ? Catalonia is the province with the most public spending per capita (and local taxes were raised by Puigdemont’s party) as shown earlier. They actually have a deficit of 3 billion euros that the central government will have to cover. Madrid brings more than double what Catalonia brings, even though its global GDP and population is lower (19 vs 7 billion) and Catalonia brings barely more than Andalucia who is way poorer...

I see that the Catalan propaganda had its effects !

https://m.asivaespana.com/politica/...na-y-madrid-a-espana-y-lo-que-reciben-despues
http://m.eldiario.es/politica/Madrid-deficit-fiscal-millones-Cataluna_0_284521745.html

I don't care what Madrid's contribution is. Catalonia is still a net contributor to the Spanish fiscus so I don't know which bogus figures you're looking at.

 

[Arthur]

Arán sorry ! Spelling mistake.

Of course. You're an educated man, so we know it's unintentional.

My phone also has auto-error. Which is why I have to edit my posts almost every time.

 

[HeftyCrab]

Not sure if this has been posted. Cant spot it:

http://m.news24.com/news24/World/Ne...ament-after-independence-declaration-20171027

Madrid - Spain dissolved Catalonia's parliament on Friday and called new regional elections after separatists voted for independence in a sharp escalation of a constitutional crisis that has stoked alarm in Europe.

 

[f2wohf]

Yet you ask why the constitution would "plan autonomic communities then." Seems you aren't exactly sure that they were foreseen and nobody can really say they were.


Courts don't always act independently especially when the future of the country is at stake.


I don't care what Madrid's contribution is. Catalonia is still a net contributor to the Spanish fiscus so I don't know which bogus figures you're looking at.

My question was rhetorical, to show that your theory (that the autonomous communities were planned after) does not make sense since they were in the constitution in 1978.

The courts have judged consistently for close to 40 years that this was legal. That makes a lot of judges who don’t act independently ! There might even be a few rulings from the European courts and/or the ECHR (not linked to the EU).

Catalonia is a low net contributor and incurs debt to contribute because their budget is completely unbalanced. They also contribute less (in proportion) than poorer communities such as Andalucia. The bogus figures are the figures from Hacienda (you know SARS) but you would know better than them right ?

Anyway, no point to argue on this anymore. Catalonia is definitely not becoming independent this time.

It would be interesting for you to read the myths of the Catalan nationalism, it explains the tax issue as well
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/09/24/actualidad/1506244170_596874.html

 

[f2wohf]

Thursday, Puigdemont and potentially all the Catalan MPs who voted for the independence will be indicted (up to 30 years in jail).

From today, 150 Catalan officials and members of cabinets are officially dismissed. Remaining would incur 1 to 3 years of jail.

Trapero, the major of the Mossos is officially dismissed.

The state will appoint their replacement during the day.

Nothing occurring on the separatist side.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politic...atalunya-cargos-confianza-govern-cesados.html
http://www.lavanguardia.com/politic...emont-govern-mesa-parlament-rebelion-dui.html

 

[f2wohf]

On the future, what I gather from different articles and opinions:

Instead of keeping the Generalitat’s budget and control and calling for elections, Puigdemont and the separatists are now imposed the same elections that they will probably have to see from jail. Note that their budgets, communication and organizational structures are destroyed and under the hands of the justice. (Notice how only 6000 people went in the streets yesterday to celebrate).

Secondly, the move of the major companies headquarters is most likely going to create a Montreal effect and boost Madrid and Valencia, with major effects on Barcelona’s real estate as well (making the locals unhappy). This will last for decades before investors regain confidence in Barcelona.

Thirdly, instead of negotiating more autonomy, they now have less and will have less and less as they have betrayed the spirit of the autonomy and misused at wide scale public funding for education, communication, police...

On the population, instead of the separatist motto “un sol poble”, you now get a completely fractured Catalan society. Yesterday’s independence deepened this fracture and this will probably take decades to repair.

A republican block is now stronger than ever to get the majority during December’s elections.

Puigdemont really had a kamikaze strategy, where he crashes his plane not on American boats but on his own Japanese boats.

 

[f2wohf]

1 million people in Barcelona’s streets, for the unity of Spain.

60% of Spanish agree with the application of 155 and 39% think it should have been done earlier.

64% of Catalans are for the elections.

http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/29/59f4dd4fca47412a678b45b5.html

The charges against Puigdemont have been finalized and will be presented tomorrow. It is still not clear if the MPs who voted for the independence will be charged as well.

 

[f2wohf]

The Generalitat contracted IBM, KPMG, T Systems and PWC to design an independent tax system (on Spanish public funds...) and gave the tax data of the citizens to these companies illegally.

This will also be presented to court soon.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politic...-disenar-la-hacienda-de-la-independencia.html

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

1 million people in Barcelona’s streets, for the unity of Spain

Undoubtedly bused in from afar. Where were they when hundreds of thousands took to the streets for independence?!?

60% of Spanish agree with the application of 155 and 39% think it should have been done earlier

100% of non Catalans' opinions have no bearing on the matter at all.

 

[f2wohf]

Undoubtedly bused in from afar. Where were they when hundreds of thousands took to the streets for independence?!?


100% of non Catalans' opinions have no bearing on the matter at all.

Proofs for the buses ? It’s not SA where you give a KFC to somebody and they’ll travel across the country. Get back to reality

There has already been a protests with 300 or 600 000 people against independence (can’t remember the exact number) a few weeks ago.

In the current legal framework, 100% of Spanish opinion have bearing no matter what is your opinion on it.

Anyway, a proper vote will be organized in December. Let’s see if the separatists win again.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Proofs for the buses ? It’s not SA where you give a KFC to somebody and they’ll travel across the country. Get back to reality

Occam's razor is reality.

In the current legal framework, 100% of Spanish opinion have bearing no matter what is your opinion on it

The current legal framework went out the window the millisecond the Spanish government started beating people in the streets for expressing an opinion. Catalans, and only Catalans, get to have an opinion about Catalonia's future.

Anyway, a proper vote will be organized in December. Let’s see if the separatists win again.

You call a forced regional election "proper"? :crylaugh: It is just more of the same BS, what will this election accomplish that multiple prior elections haven't? You expect peace and calm if "unity" wins? Or separatists win? LOL, it'll be the most useless election in the history of elections given that the result has no hope in hell of making anything better regardless of what that result ends up being.

 

[Polymathic]

Undoubtedly bused in from afar. Where were they when hundreds of thousands took to the streets for independence?!?


100% of non Catalans' opinions have no bearing on the matter at all.

There's a lot of Castilian (Spanish) living in Barcelona and a fair bit or realist who know what leaving the EU will do to the region.

 

[f2wohf]

It is calm right now and has been since the referendum, without any police intervention.

If the Mossos and the Generalitat didn’t push their little guerilla agenda (hiding the ballots in France, using illegally public funds, using local police for illegal goals, using illegally people’s data, buying Chinese opaque boxes), maybe the national police wouldn’t have had to intervene ! It couldn’t look more rigged (remember the first published results were showing over 100% of votes counted ).

Actually the support to independence now went down to 33% of Catalans. http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/30/59f63942468aeb755c8b4678.html

On 21st December, only Catalans (whatever this means because you know everybody living there is not necessarily native or even speaking Catalan, how many generations should we go back to prove your right to be Catalan ? Is somebody from Catalan father and Madrilene mother Catalán ? Is a Madrilene living in Barcelona Catalan or vice versa ?) will vote and this will give a pretty clear picture.

The referendum was a farce and a sham and the non existent Catalan resistance shows that even Catalans consider it as such.

Only the hardcore supporters of Òmnium and ANC (a few thousand people) ever went in the streets went independence was declared, it shows it all.

 

[thestaggy]

And this is why I said from the start that nobody will touch a Catalonian Republic with a 10-foot pole.

The Minister-President of Flanders, Geert Bourgeois, showed support for the Catalan Republic, but acknowledged the decision is up to the Belgian federal government.[114] The President of the Corsican Assembly, Jean-Guy Talamoni, expressed its support for the Catalan independence.[115] The Scottish Government voiced its support for the self-determination of the Catalan people, stating that they "understand and respect the position of the Catalan Government".

If Belgium recognises it then it likely triggers Flemish independence. If France recognises it it likely triggers the Corsicans. Sticky topic for the UK as well.

The Old Boy's Club is just maintaining the status quo, which is what I have said since the beginning. They don't want things to get restless back home.