Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

[f2wohf]

And this is why I said from the start that nobody will touch a Catalonian Republic with a 10-foot pole.



If Belgium recognises it then it likely triggers Flemish independence. If France recognises it it likely triggers the Corsicans. Sticky topic for the UK as well.

The Old Boy's Club is just maintaining the status quo, which is what I have said since the beginning. They don't want things to get restless back home.

The first question would be to know if Catalans themselves are really for the independence, which at this stage is only conjecture (one way or another).

Corsica, I would fare very well without it, they cost a fortune and bring strictly nothing to France (but unlike others I know the meaning of solidarity and would keep them in should they want to).

 

[Polymathic]

And this is why I said from the start that nobody will touch a Catalonian Republic with a 10-foot pole.



If Belgium recognises it then it likely triggers Flemish independence. If France recognises it it likely triggers the Corsicans. Sticky topic for the UK as well.

The Old Boy's Club is just maintaining the status quo, which is what I have said since the beginning. They don't want things to get restless back home.

Flemish Independence would be interesting, when it happens the EU will lose it's capital

 

[f2wohf]

Flemish Independence would be interesting, when it happens the EU will lose it's capital

Brussels is actually half half.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels

The Brussels-Capital Region is located in the central portion of the country and is a part of both the French Community of Belgium[10] and the Flemish Community, but is separate from the region of Flanders (in which it forms an enclave) or Wallonia.

 

[Polymathic]

Brussels is actually half half.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels

The Brussels-Capital Region is located in the central portion of the country and is a part of both the French Community of Belgium[10] and the Flemish Community, but is separate from the region of Flanders (in which it forms an enclave) or Wallonia.

The Brussels issue is the only thing that's holding the Flemish back and there are some rather concerted and contravertional methods being used to Defrankosise the capital.

 

[Polymathic]

The first question would be to know if Catalans themselves are really for the independence, which at this stage is only conjecture (one way or another).

Corsica, I would fare very well without it, they cost a fortune and bring strictly nothing to France (but unlike others I know the meaning of solidarity and would keep them in should they want to).

You sound like you support the Chinese occupation of Tibet and against the Kurds having their own nation

 

[f2wohf]

You sound like you support the Chinese occupation of Tibet and against the Kurds having their own nation

No, I call for a proper, legal and organized referendum.

Not something made at the last minute by a bunch of extremist looneys like in Catalonia.

I recognize the Kurdish referendum, and independence processes must be done carefully and over time, definitely not overnight. And if not recognized by the international community, it is pretty much useless (recognition is actually one of the definitions of sovereign state). Otherwise, I could declare my farm as an independent country tomorrow.

As far as Belgium, you can’t find a more artificial state with less identity, historically Flanders should be Dutch and Wallonie French. It was created as a buffer between the two.

 

[Blue Shirt]

As far as Belgium, you can’t find a more artificial state with less identity, historically Flanders should be Dutch and Wallonie French. It was created as a buffer between the two.

According to Jeremy Clarkson, Belgium was created so England and Germany have a place where they can sort out their differences.

Now imagine an artificial place on the southern tip of Africa, where there are 11 official languages and vast cultural/social differences...

 

[Polymathic]

According to Jeremy Clarkson, Belgium was created so England and Germany have a place where they can sort out their differences.

Now imagine an artificial place on the southern tip of Africa, where there are 11 official languages and vast cultural/social differences...

Distrust of the whites, coloured and indians keep the tribal types united

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

No, I call for a proper, legal and organized referendum

You call for something that will never be allowed in Spain? How does that help anyone at all?

Not something made at the last minute by a bunch of extremist looneys like in Catalonia

Last minute? I know you know the timeline better than that so I can only assume you're lying intentionally about anything being "last minute" ...

Jan 2013: Catalan parliament adopts a declaration of sovereignty
Oct 2014: Catalan parliament sets a Nov 2014 date for a referendum
Nov 2014: Referendum results in 81% support for independence
Sep 2015: Regional election run specifically focusing on the independence issue, majority of seats won by pro-independence parties
Nov 2015: Catalan parliament adopts a resolution declaring the start of the independence process
Sep 2016: Independence referendum date set for Sep 2017
Jun 2017: Independence referendum date moved out to Oct 2017

Pray tell how an official process that's been going on for more than 4 years, yielding a referendum with 13 months advance notice is "last minute" in any way shape or form?

 

[f2wohf]

You call for something that will never be allowed in Spain? How does that help anyone at all?


Last minute? I know you know the timeline better than that so I can only assume you're lying intentionally about anything being "last minute" ...

Jan 2013: Catalan parliament adopts a declaration of sovereignty
Oct 2014: Catalan parliament sets a Nov 2014 date for a referendum
Nov 2014: Referendum results in 81% support for independence
Sep 2015: Regional election run specifically focusing on the independence issue, majority of seats won by pro-independence parties
Nov 2015: Catalan parliament adopts a resolution declaring the start of the independence process
Sep 2016: Independence referendum date set for Sep 2017
Jun 2017: Independence referendum date moved out to Oct 2017

Pray tell how an official process that's been going on for more than 4 years, yielding a referendum with 13 months advance notice is "last minute" in any way shape or form?

I say last minute because the organization was clearly last minute:
Having proper ballot boxes ?
A proper and audited count of the votes ?
Not allowing people to vote several times ?
Respect the funding laws and not fund the referendum from public funds ?

This should have been secured, made transparent and unchallengeable.

Instead, they shot in their feet by having a dubious referendum and opened the door for the Spanish government to completely discredit them without any effort.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

This should have been secured, made transparent

Sure, it should have, but

and unchallengeable

this is flat out impossible with a government hell bent on suppressing the movement, regardless of how the referendum was run it would be declared illegal (just like the 2014 referendum) and the Catalans would be stuck with choosing yet another election (just like the 2014 referendum) or realizing that will never work and just declaring independence and facing the music.

At least they tried something different this time round, Rajoy is deluded if he thinks this is the end of it.

 

[konfab]

I say last minute because the organization was clearly last minute:
Having proper ballot boxes ?
A proper and audited count of the votes ?
Not allowing people to vote several times ?
Respect the funding laws and not fund the referendum from public funds ?

This should have been secured, made transparent and unchallengeable.

Instead, they shot in their feet by having a dubious referendum and opened the door for the Spanish government to completely discredit them without any effort.

That isn't quite fair TBH, the Spanish government did all they could to make that referendum as illegitimate as possible. Spain could have flattened the separatist movement completely by doing what the UK did with Scotland:help organise a legitimate referendum, plus a peace offering and greater support if a "no" vote is secured. That is the way the civilised world (aka the UK) does things.

 

[f2wohf]

That isn't quite fair TBH, the Spanish government did all they could to make that referendum as illegitimate as possible. Spain could have flattened the separatist movement completely by doing what the UK did with Scotland:help organise a legitimate referendum, plus a peace offering and greater support if a "no" vote is secured. That is the way the civilised world (aka the UK) does things.

If you adopt such guerilla tactics (such as hiding the ballot boxes in France), hiring KPMG and PWC to develop a separatist tax system but you can’t get proper ballot boxes and an audited count of the votes, I’m sorry but you are either stupid or full of bad faith !

I would choose the stupid option since the first count revealed more than 100% of votes.

 

[f2wohf]

The political refugee Puigdemont. Let me laugh...

He flew to Brussels before his bail of 300 000 euros has been announced.

I would bet that Belgium will not grant him asylum, it would be unsustainable for them.

https://www.politico.eu/article/catalan-leader-puigdemont-in-brussels-reports-say/

Didn’t have time to read the full charges but I’ll go through it in the next days.

https://ep00.epimg.net/descargables/2017/10/30/90ca3bacaed56025f932ff58689c284e.pdf

 

[Polymathic]

I think Puigdemont's game now is trying to get the Spanish Prime Minister to step down.

 

[f2wohf]

I think Puigdemont's game now is trying to get the Spanish Prime Minister to step down.

How would that ever happen ? Puigdemont has no bearing whatsoever on Rajoy.

The PM’s approval rate actually increased since last week, it was bad during the referendum but improved since.

All separatist parties have confirmed that they will participate to the elections.

Belgium issued an official statement that there must be serious signs of persecution for the asylum to be granted. I don’t see Puigdemont getting it anytime soon knowing the ECHR case law on political persecution.

Even if he gets it, he would be stuck in Belgium for life, not even able to go to France, Germany, Netherlands from where he would be extradited to Spain.

 

[f2wohf]

As i thought, the Belgian media and government say that it would be almost impossible for him to get political asylum.

http://plus.lesoir.be/121915/articl...-du-gouvernement-catalan-en-exil-peu-probable

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

As i thought, the Belgian media and government say that it would be almost impossible for him to get political asylum.
http://plus.lesoir.be/121915/articl...-du-gouvernement-catalan-en-exil-peu-probable

Oh the irony, any number of terrorists / social grant seekers can just rock up and claim asylum. But an EU citizen that is neither terrorist nor freeloader can get bent ...

 

[Polymathic]

How would that ever happen ? Puigdemont has no bearing whatsoever on Rajoy.

The PM’s approval rate actually increased since last week, it was bad during the referendum but improved since.

All separatist parties have confirmed that they will participate to the elections.

Belgium issued an official statement that there must be serious signs of persecution for the asylum to be granted. I don’t see Puigdemont getting it anytime soon knowing the ECHR case law on political persecution.

Even if he gets it, he would be stuck in Belgium for life, not even able to go to France, Germany, Netherlands from where he would be extradited to Spain.

Rajoy's government is only in power because of a coalition having only 28.7% of the vote by declaring independence because of Rajoy's refusal to come to the table for negotiations the strategy was to get try to get this coalition to lose confidence in Rajoy. I think Rajoy's time is numbered by the way things are going they going to wait for the Catalan situation to be sorted out before dealing with Rajoy.

 

[f2wohf]

Rajoy's government is only in power because of a coalition having only 28.7% of the vote by declaring independence because of Rajoy's refusal to come to the table for negotiations the strategy was to get try to get this coalition to lose confidence in Rajoy. I think Rajoy's time is numbered by the way things are going they going to wait for the Catalan situation to be sorted out before dealing with Rajoy.

The power would come back to the PSOE (who also voted for Article 155), who is also far from being in a strong position.

It wouldn’t change anything for Puigdemont or the separatists.