Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

[buka001]

Spanish government loosing the moral battle as far as I see. Plenty of pictures of pro-spanish fascists sporting their Nazi salutes and swatstikas.

Franco's nationalism is still somewhat entrenched it would appear.

 

[Polymathic]

Spanish government loosing the moral battle as far as I see. Plenty of pictures of pro-spanish fascists sporting their Nazi salutes and swatstikas.

Franco's nationalism is still somewhat entrenched it would appear.

Nationalism is a growing trend in the EU, nationalism is what motivated this referendum. EU is really concerned about nationalism, nationalist movements may be the death of the EU.

 

[f2wohf]

Oh the irony, any number of terrorists / social grant seekers can just rock up and claim asylum. But an EU citizen that is neither terrorist nor freeloader can get bent ...

Belgium has actually been sheltering ETArras sentenced for assassinations for decades. http://www.vozpopuli.com/politica/pepona-precedente-Belgica-extradicion-Puigdemont_0_1076893427.html

Puigdemont has been charged in Spain before fleeing to Belgium.

Terrorists tend to get asylum before committing attacks, not after !

 

[f2wohf]

Interesting analysis:

Separatism has been overestimated, Rajoy underestimated and let’s be careful of not underestimating 21 December.

The separatists seemed to be much stronger than they were until the secret vote in Parliament and the very modest celebration of the DUI (6000 people). Everybody was expecting a functioning Catalan Republic to start from there and resist until the end but instead they just fled at the beginning.

Rajoy has been underestimated and his ingenious ways to get authorized to promulgate Article 155 and organizing elections in barely 50 days leave little for Catalans to complain about.

The risk now is to underestimate 21 December and the separatism. Let’s be careful to not think that the Catalan issue and moreover Spain’s territorial issues have been solved.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/31/la_voz_de_inaki/1509437310_484584.html

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Rajoy has been underestimated and his ingenious ways to get authorized to promulgate Article 155 and organizing elections in barely 50 days leave little for Catalans to complain about

:crylaugh: outright oppression is considered "ingenious" these days?

F-me, someone better travel back in time and award Hitler some prizes for ingenuity, those gas chambers man, truly out of the box thinking ingenuity ...

 

[f2wohf]

:crylaugh: outright oppression is considered "ingenious" these days?

F-me, someone better travel back in time and award Hitler some prizes for ingenuity, those gas chambers man, truly out of the box thinking ingenuity ...

You haven’t read Spanish media. It’s referring to the negotiations in the senate around the 155 and the ways to get it approved across the political chessboard, not the referendum.

 

[f2wohf]

Puigdemont will fight his extradition without applying for a political refugee status. Good luck...

http://www.news24.com/World/News/spain-issues-arrest-warrant-for-catalan-leader-20171103

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

[video=youtube;_RdcEp69K_M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RdcEp69K_M[/video]

 

[Vrotappel]

[video=youtube;_RdcEp69K_M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RdcEp69K_M[/video]

Those look a bit more than 6000.

 

[Polymathic]

Those look a bit more than 6000.

Are you Rainman?

 

[Polymathic]

You haven’t read Spanish media. It’s referring to the negotiations in the senate around the 155 and the ways to get it approved across the political chessboard, not the referendum.

Let's see in a few months time if he's still around then you can call his politicking "ingenious"

 

[f2wohf]

Let's see in a few months time if he's still around then you can call his politicking "ingenious"

Can you read or do I need to write it again ?

I never said ingenious, the political analyst said so.

 

[Swa]

My question was rhetorical, to show that your theory (that the autonomous communities were planned after) does not make sense since they were in the constitution in 1978.

The courts have judged consistently for close to 40 years that this was legal. That makes a lot of judges who don’t act independently ! There might even be a few rulings from the European courts and/or the ECHR (not linked to the EU).

Catalonia is a low net contributor and incurs debt to contribute because their budget is completely unbalanced. They also contribute less (in proportion) than poorer communities such as Andalucia. The bogus figures are the figures from Hacienda (you know SARS) but you would know better than them right ?

Anyway, no point to argue on this anymore. Catalonia is definitely not becoming independent this time.

It would be interesting for you to read the myths of the Catalan nationalism, it explains the tax issue as well
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/09/24/actualidad/1506244170_596874.html

You appear to be confused on the issue since autonomous communities and particularly the ones like Catalonia by decree didn't exist with the drawing of the constitution.

A for the net contributor issue it isn't based on debt or else it wouldn't be a net contribution. You also don't borrow money to pay tax as it's based on income. You just can't bring yourself to admit that Catalonia was one of the states keeping Spain out of the ****.

On the future, what I gather from different articles and opinions:

Instead of keeping the Generalitat’s budget and control and calling for elections, Puigdemont and the separatists are now imposed the same elections that they will probably have to see from jail. Note that their budgets, communication and organizational structures are destroyed and under the hands of the justice. (Notice how only 6000 people went in the streets yesterday to celebrate).

Secondly, the move of the major companies headquarters is most likely going to create a Montreal effect and boost Madrid and Valencia, with major effects on Barcelona’s real estate as well (making the locals unhappy). This will last for decades before investors regain confidence in Barcelona.

Thirdly, instead of negotiating more autonomy, they now have less and will have less and less as they have betrayed the spirit of the autonomy and misused at wide scale public funding for education, communication, police...

On the population, instead of the separatist motto “un sol poble”, you now get a completely fractured Catalan society. Yesterday’s independence deepened this fracture and this will probably take decades to repair.

A republican block is now stronger than ever to get the majority during December’s elections.

Puigdemont really had a kamikaze strategy, where he crashes his plane not on American boats but on his own Japanese boats.

Bahh. That's like saying if the dog doesn't want the crumbs it's fed it should stay hungry.

Undoubtedly bused in from afar. Where were they when hundreds of thousands took to the streets for independence?!?


100% of non Catalans' opinions have no bearing on the matter at all.

Exactly. Spain taking to the streets for their own interests and Catalonia taking to the streets for their own interests aren't exactly impartial. The only sensible solution is to split.

It is calm right now and has been since the referendum, without any police intervention.

If the Mossos and the Generalitat didn’t push their little guerilla agenda (hiding the ballots in France, using illegally public funds, using local police for illegal goals, using illegally people’s data, buying Chinese opaque boxes), maybe the national police wouldn’t have had to intervene ! It couldn’t look more rigged (remember the first published results were showing over 100% of votes counted ).

Even if the allegations of a rigged referendum is true so you're saying it gives Spain the right to use police violence against civilians? That's just a warped way of thinking if ever I say it. It's like our own elitists who hold the law up against everybody else yet they show no concern for it themselves.

No, I call for a proper, legal and organized referendum.

Not something made at the last minute by a bunch of extremist looneys like in Catalonia.

I recognize the Kurdish referendum, and independence processes must be done carefully and over time, definitely not overnight. And if not recognized by the international community, it is pretty much useless (recognition is actually one of the definitions of sovereign state). Otherwise, I could declare my farm as an independent country tomorrow.

As far as Belgium, you can’t find a more artificial state with less identity, historically Flanders should be Dutch and Wallonie French. It was created as a buffer between the two.

But that is exactly what Catalonia wanted yet Spain opposes. And I see no reason you couldn't declare your farm independent but then you'd have to run it independently as well. No exactly practical. Catalonia is very different however but we're dealing with made up rules here in any case.

I say last minute because the organization was clearly last minute:
Having proper ballot boxes ?
A proper and audited count of the votes ?
Not allowing people to vote several times ?
Respect the funding laws and not fund the referendum from public funds ?

This should have been secured, made transparent and unchallengeable.

Instead, they shot in their feet by having a dubious referendum and opened the door for the Spanish government to completely discredit them without any effort.

How is it not unchallengeable? Just because you claim it isn't doesn't make it so. Your only objection against it was that you can't believe the results it yielded. Further Spain did a lot to actually try and prevent it by force so how could it occur without hickups?

 

[f2wohf]

You appear to be confused on the issue since autonomous communities and particularly the ones like Catalonia by decree didn't exist with the drawing of the constitution.

EVERY (I repeat every) single province/region in Spain is an autonomous community since 1978's Constitution.

Even Madrid is an autonomous community. Then they negotiated autonomous pacts defining the level of autonomy with the central government.

I will let you read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_communities_of_Spain

A for the net contributor issue it isn't based on debt or else it wouldn't be a net contribution. You also don't borrow money to pay tax as it's based on income. You just can't bring yourself to admit that Catalonia was one of the states keeping Spain out of the ****.

Catalonia spends more than it collects, simple as that. They have been as up as 8% of deficit, which is ridiculously high.

Catalonia contributes: 9.8 billion euro (5% GDP)
Madrid contributes: 19 billion (9.8% GDP)

Hence, Catalan taxes do not finance Spain but Catalan local politics.

https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/09/24/actualidad/1506244170_596874.html#mito5

Even if the allegations of a rigged referendum is true so you're saying it gives Spain the right to use police violence against civilians? That's just a warped way of thinking if ever I say it. It's like our own elitists who hold the law up against everybody else yet they show no concern for it themselves.

Isn't upholding the law exactly the police's mission ? Isn't respecting the law exactly where Puigdemont failed ? Isn't the police always against civilians (I've personally never seen the police going against the army...) ?

How is it not unchallengeable? Just because you claim it isn't doesn't make it so. Your only objection against it was that you can't believe the results it yielded. Further Spain did a lot to actually try and prevent it by force so how could it occur without hickups?

There is an electoral code stating amongst others:
Having proper ballot boxes ?
A proper and audited count of the votes ?
Not allowing people to vote several times ?
Respect the funding laws and not fund the referendum from public funds ?

They were able to give illegal contracts to KPMG to create a shadow parallel tax system and to other companies to create a shadow communications network, but they're not able to get transparent ballot boxes and an audited count ? Who are you trying to fool here ?

 

[Polymathic]

There is an electoral code stating amongst others:
Having proper ballot boxes ?
A proper and audited count of the votes ?
Not allowing people to vote several times ?
Respect the funding laws and not fund the referendum from public funds ?

They tried to follow those steps until Madrid started to stifle the process. The Spanish Regime employing tactics that would made Mugabe proud is sickening and disgusting. No number of stats will change that fact.

 

[f2wohf]

They tried to follow those steps until Madrid started to stifle the process. The Spanish Regime employing tactics that would made Mugabe proud is sickening and disgusting. No number of stats will change that fact.

Caring to provide proof ?

The ballot boxes were hidden in France and Spain did not seize them. How hard can it be to order ballot boxes from France ?

How hard can it be to secure an auditing firm or even a notary to warrant the accuracy of the results ?

They did not even try to do it.

Puigdemont and his team have been clumsy since the beginning, their bs escape to Belgium being in the continuity of this.

If you are ready to fight for your cause, be ready to go to jail. If you want to escape, escape to a place where you won't be extradited (meaning not Belgium).

 

[Polymathic]

Caring to provide proof ?

The ballot boxes were hidden in France and Spain did not seize them. How hard can it be to order ballot boxes from France ?

How hard can it be to secure an auditing firm or even a notary to warrant the accuracy of the results ?

They did not even try to do it.

Puigdemont and his team have been clumsy since the beginning, their bs escape to Belgium being in the continuity of this.

If you are ready to fight for your cause, be ready to go to jail. If you want to escape, escape to a place where you won't be extradited (meaning not Belgium).

Are you serious?? :wtf:

 

[f2wohf]

Are you serious?? :wtf:

They tried to follow those steps

Proof that they tried to follow the proper steps.

That they secure proper ballot boxes, that they secured an auditing firm, that they tried to follow the electoral code basically.

 

[f2wohf]

The Generalitat paid illegally on public funds Assange and Yoko Ono 2.3 million euros to lobby and write article supporting the independence.

http://www.catalunyapress.es/texto-diario/mostrar/878993/encuentran-factura-generalitat-pago-assange

 

[Hamish McPanji]

The Generalitat paid illegally on public funds Assange and Yoko Ono 2.3 million euros to lobby and write article supporting the independence.

http://www.catalunyapress.es/texto-diario/mostrar/878993/encuentran-factura-generalitat-pago-assange

Just another sign that wikileaks has just become another paid for lobbying group