Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

[C4Cat]

It does established a trend. Unless you have actual numbers of the people that abstained in protest(not everyone who abstained because they don't care or out of fear) the trend holds and 90% voted to leave.

Why didn't the remainers and spain just participate. Then the legal issues wouldn't have existed, but they knew they were going to lose.

Nope it doesn't establish anything other than 90% of those who voted, voted yes.

 

[f2wohf]

And realistically, how will Catalans ever have a legal referendum when it is violently opposed by their national government?

They won't, hence an illegal vote is all they have ...

The vote can be illegal, it doesn’t mean it has to be rigged and without 200+ municipalities.

It doesn’t mean the ballot boxes have to be other than transparent.

It doesn’t mean people are allowed to vote several times.

They can do their referendum, but do it properly.

In that case, if you consider this vote as legitimate, let’s officially rig every single election, it will be easier.

I’d also like to point out that a vote about the indépendance at the Catalan Parliament in 2015 reached a majority of no, after which the president of the region made a law to ask for a referendum.

They basically ask to keep on revoting until they win. Exactly what Brexit remoaners want too.

All the votations at a smaller level around a 30% turnout with 70/80% of yes, the people voting no don’t move for useless votes. All the polls show that the no is 50+%.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Bit of a hectic comparison you've got going there, how in any way does it resemble the USSR?

- Multiple states that answer to a single higher authority regardless of their own decisions?
- Trade regulated by that central authority to the point where certain regions may only produce certain quotas of certain products
- Single currency regulated by that central authority
- Citizens on social welfare programs on a large scale
- Police beating the shyte out of citizens in the streets for expressing a dissenting opinion

Those things formed the bedrock of the USSR, and they are all present in the EU today ...

 

[vic777]

- Multiple states that answer to a single higher authority regardless of their own decisions?
- Trade regulated by that central authority to the point where certain regions may only produce certain quotas of certain products
- Single currency regulated by that central authority
- Citizens on social welfare programs on a large scale
- Police beating the shyte out of citizens in the streets for expressing a dissenting opinion

Those things formed the bedrock of the USSR, and they are all present in the EU today ...

I hear what you are saying but you are reaching.

The USSR was a communist state that policed everything and didn't allow people to move freely to different countries - which is not what the EU is?

There has to be central governing rules to make something like the EU work - but states still have their own, unique laws.

The single currency is not an issue?

The USSR had no food on the shelves towards the end, not quite the same as people on social welfare.

"Police beating the shyte out of citizens in the streets for expressing a dissenting opinion" - yes, thats bad - but it happened in Spain now, not all over the EU.

 

[rietrot]

Nope it doesn't establish anything other than 90% of those who voted, voted yes.

Okay it seems you lack basic stats education.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trend_analysis

This is the basis of polling and the more people you have the more accurate it gets. Normal polls that phone up a few people claim to have a very small error margin. Having millions vote is far more accurate. 90% is the will of the people. Unless you proof millions abstained out of protest(not because they were lazy or scared). Stats 101.

 

[C4Cat]

Okay it seems you lack basic stats education.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trend_analysis

This is the basis of polling and the more people you have the more accurate it gets. Normal polls that phone up a few people claim to have a very small error margin. Having millions vote is far more accurate. 90% is the will of the people. Unless you proof millions abstained out of protest(not because they were lazy or scared). Stats 101.

Polls use random selection, the referendum does not. That's the crucial difference. It's highly likely that those who didn't want the referendum in the first place didn't bother taking part and those that wanted independence from Spain were most enthusiastic about it and most likely to vote. Not random at all.
http://www.stat.yale.edu/Courses/1997-98/101/sample.htm

 

[Patrick_Hockstetter]

Probably not because all the countries with independence movements (UK, France, Spain, Italy, Belgium and probably a few others) will reject the entrance in the EU fearing in order for an indépendant Catalunya to fail.

I hope you are right.

 

[Patrick_Hockstetter]

I know your boss is looking keenly at the developments

I dont have a boss....

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

I hear what you are saying but you are reaching

Don't you think there was a time in the old USSR where people warned against the future and they were also told "nah, you're reaching now, it'll all be fine"? It is a slippery slope, all I'm saying really is the EU is dancing on the edge of that slippery slope.

The single currency is not an issue?

It's a huge issue for all the poorer EU nations, the PIIGS who are drowning in Euro denominated debt and have no way to manipulate their currency to manage that debt burden. Not that I agree with such manipulation, but it's what most countries do except EU nations that are unable to do it despite some believing there is a desperate need to do it.

The USSR had no food on the shelves towards the end

and Greece had the same problem only 2 years ago ...

"Police beating the shyte out of citizens in the streets for expressing a dissenting opinion" - yes, thats bad - but it happened in Spain now, not all over the EU.

Like I said, slippery slope ...

 

[rietrot]

Polls use random selection, the referendum does not. That's the crucial difference. It's highly likely that those who didn't want the referendum in the first place didn't bother taking part and those that wanted independence from Spain were most enthusiastic about it and most likely to vote. Not random at all.
http://www.stat.yale.edu/Courses/1997-98/101/sample.htm

Referendums allow everyone to vote. That's the golden standard in sample sizes.
Claiming that the remainers were not as enthusiastic is some next level feels>reals BS. If they cared they would have voted if they don't care their votes don't matter.
I'm willing to consider those that you can proof willfully abstained out of protest against the legalities. Count all of them on the remain side if you wish, even though that is not a given as someone can agree with the referendum to leave but abstain on principle about how it was conducted(the issues regarding legality)


We don't measure a number of people on how enthusiastic they are. That's like a musician asking different sections of a crowd to scream. It means fokol. Count the votes.

 

[BBSA]

Hell yes, then I can emigrate to the Western cape

Me to, but imagine the uproar from BlackMamba and his ilks if WC have a fully independent government which is not dependent on the ANC.

 

[rietrot]

Me to, but imagine the uproar from BlackMamba and his ilks if WC have a fully independent government which is not dependent on the ANC.

We should allow that. Have some debate about the borders. Why only WC and not on the historic borders of the cape colony? NC and EC can be given an option to pick a side.
Its easy to implement in the beginning everything just stay the same except the authority in charge.

Then you guys can stop trading with us, ask for a passport when we visit, built a wall to keep those unwanted people from JHB out.

 

[C4Cat]

Referendums allow everyone to vote. That's the golden standard in sample sizes.
Claiming that the remainers were not as enthusiastic is some next level feels>reals BS. If they cared they would have voted if they don't care their votes don't matter.
I'm willing to consider those that you can proof willfully abstained out of protest against the legalities. Count all of them on the remain side if you wish, even though that is not a given as someone can agree with the referendum to leave but abstain on principle about how it was conducted(the issues regarding legality)


We don't measure a number of people on how enthusiastic they are. That's like a musician asking different sections of a crowd to scream. It means fokol. Count the votes.

Still not random and the result not representative of the overall population.

 

[rietrot]

Still not random and the result not representative of the overall population.

It includes everybody, that is the overall population. If you take a true measurement of everyone you have the perfect sample and you can just count the votes. The only random thing is your understanding of stats and polling.

 

[vic777]

Don't you think there was a time in the old USSR where people warned against the future and they were also told "nah, you're reaching now, it'll all be fine"? It is a slippery slope, all I'm saying really is the EU is dancing on the edge of that slippery slope.


It's a huge issue for all the poorer EU nations, the PIIGS who are drowning in Euro denominated debt and have no way to manipulate their currency to manage that debt burden. Not that I agree with such manipulation, but it's what most countries do except EU nations that are unable to do it despite some believing there is a desperate need to do it.


and Greece had the same problem only 2 years ago ...


Like I said, slippery slope ...

Remember, Greece has many issues- like dodging tax, a very fat overpaid state service and disproportionately high government pensions

 

[konfab]

“there is now a widespread tendency to argue that one can only defend democracy by totalitarian methods. If one loves democracy, the argument runs, one must crush its enemies by no matter what means.”

― George Orwell

 

[koeksGHT]

Would you say the same if it was the Western Cape?

YES!

 

[C4Cat]

It includes everybody, that is the overall population. If you take a true measurement of everyone you have the perfect sample and you can just count the votes. The only random thing is your understanding of stats and polling.

It doesn't include everybody because less than half the population took part

 

[f2wohf]

It doesn't include everybody because less than half the population took part

With close to 1/3 of the population not even allowed to vote since 200+ municipalities could not vote.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Source: Spanish court blocks Catalan parliament from declaring independence

Spain’s constitutional court has moved to stop the Catalan government making a unilateral declaration of independence by suspending the regional parliament session in which the results of Sunday’s referendum were due to be discussed.

On Thursday, the court upheld a challenge by Catalonia’s Socialist party – which opposes secession from Spain – ruling that allowing the Catalan parliament to meet on Monday and potentially declare independence would violate the rights of the party’s MPs.

these idiots just don't get it, if the people truly want freedom, you can't have the gestapo beat it out of them and you can't have courts order it out of them ... excellent lesson in how NOT to handle dissent