Catalans vote to split from Spain amid violent police crackdown

[Shayd]

Would you say the same if it was the Western Cape?

If they want self determination, then let them have it.

We cannot be for democracy but only when it suits us.

 

[ponder]

With close to 1/3 of the population not even allowed to vote since 200+ municipalities could not vote.

Are you talking about the catalan or spanish population?

I don't recall anybody here having issues with the Scottish independence referendum a few years back where only those resident in scotland got to vote, what's different now/here?

And no I have not read through the whole thread.

 

[Hosehead]

Source: Spanish court blocks Catalan parliament from declaring independence


these idiots just don't get it, if the people truly want freedom, you can't have the gestapo beat it out of them and you can't have courts order it out of them ... excellent lesson in how NOT to handle dissent

Have you any idea what the ETA separatists did?

For four decades, the armed organisation Eta has waged a bloody campaign for independence for the seven regions in northern Spain and south-west France that Basque separatists claim as their own.
In April 2017 the militant group revealed the locations of it weapons caches, and said it had completely disarmed.
But the Spanish government said the group would "get nothing" in exchange. It demanded that Eta "disarm and dissolve itself".

source bbc

Civil war 2.?

 

[C4Cat]

Are you talking about the catalan or spanish population?

I don't recall anybody here having issues with the Scottish independence referendum a few years back where only those resident in scotland got to vote, what's different now/here?

And no I have read through the whole thread.

The main difference is that the Scottish referendum was legitimate in that it was based on an agreement between the Scottish Government and the United Kingdom government - the UK government had already agreed to respect the outcome of the referendum before it took place and a proper Act was created (The Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013) to cover this arrangement.

Obviously in this case the Spanish government has not legitimised the referendum, has not agreed to it, there was no oversight or credibility to it (in the sense of external observers validating the it was free and fair, etc), not everyone could vote, even in Catalania and there were widespread reports of intimidation and people being prevented from taking part. Many who didn't support it just didn't bother taking part too.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Have you any idea what the ETA separatists did?

Your point? Violently oppressing the will of the Catalan people will turn them into separatists, not loyal citizens. Spain should have learned that lesson by now it seems, at least Catalonia is trying a relatively peaceful route, the national government is turning things violent, not the other way around.

Civil war 2.?

May well be, perhaps time to try something new?

 

[konfab]

Peter Hitchens (as usual) as a very good article on this:

I know too little about Spanish politics to judge, though I have seldom seen a crisis worse-handled. Clubbing old ladies trying to vote is never a good tactic. But perhaps the sad truth is that Catalonia’s claim, in justice and logic, is so irresistible, that force is the only practicable weapon against it. In which case there is much misery to come. My own view of such matters, conditioned by the Irish tragedy after 1916, is that if constituent parts of your nation desire to leave it, you must let them go. If you cannot hold your country together by love and loyalty, then the use of force will poison that nation for decades afterwards – and may in the end lead to a worse breach than before.

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2017/10/can-catalonia-really-be-independent-.html

 

[ponder]

Obviously in this case the Spanish government has not legitimised the referendum, has not agreed to it, there was no oversight or credibility to it (in the sense of external observers validating the it was free and fair, etc), not everyone could vote, even in Catalania and there were widespread reports of intimidation and people being prevented from taking part. Many who didn't support it just didn't bother taking part too.

Will the gov/courts ever allow the catalans a referendum so it's legitimate?

 

[Knyro]

If they want self determination, then let them have it.

We cannot be for democracy but only when it suits us.

Then they can piss off and "self-determine" somewhere else. Nobody is busting up muh Seffrica.

 

[f2wohf]

Are you talking about the catalan or spanish population?

I don't recall anybody here having issues with the Scottish independence referendum a few years back where only those resident in scotland got to vote, what's different now/here?

And no I have not read through the whole thread.

Catalan population

 

[f2wohf]

Source: Spanish court blocks Catalan parliament from declaring independence


these idiots just don't get it, if the people truly want freedom, you can't have the gestapo beat it out of them and you can't have courts order it out of them ... excellent lesson in how NOT to handle dissent

How do you assess that the people want freedom of 1/3 is not even allowed to vote and the others vote several times ?

This referendum was a joke and it stops right here.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

How do you assess that the people want freedom of 1/3 is not even allowed to vote and the others vote several times ?
This referendum was a joke and it stops right here.

Take your EU blinkers off and open your eyes, this push has been a LONG time coming, protests from prior years formed a human chain spanning across and connecting numerous different cities, the people out in the streets post referendum filled Barcelona's streets.

You can argue there were irregularities, sure, but you'd have to be blind to think the majority does not want independence.

EDIT: and no it doesn't stop here, come Monday there will be a declaration or there will be violence, mark my words

 

[f2wohf]

Take your EU blinkers off and open your eyes, this push has been a LONG time coming, protests from prior years formed a human chain spanning across and connecting numerous different cities, the people out in the streets post referendum filled Barcelona's streets.

You can argue there were irregularities, sure, but you'd have to be blind to think the majority does not want independence.

EDIT: and no it doesn't stop here, come Monday there will be a declaration or there will be violence, mark my words

Read the Spanish news, anti separatists were being intimidated for months, policemen have resigned.

They just woke up yesterday after the king’s speech.

The two major Catalan banks moved their headquarters out of Catalunya yesterday by the way.

I have no EU blinkers on this issue but I’ve lived 4 years in Spain and speak fluently Spanish so I can follow the local news a little better than you do.

A human chain and a protest, that must mean everything.

1/3 of the population was not ALLOWED to vote. The debate stops there, it’s not an irregularity, it’s a total failure.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

1/3 of the population was not ALLOWED to vote. The debate stops there, it’s not an irregularity, it’s a total failure.

The vote itself was violently oppressed, 100% of Catalans were not allowed to vote by the national government. So you are right, the debate stops there, grant them independence seeing as nobody was allowed to officially support, or oppose, the status quo ....

But the numbers don't matter of course, this is just some minor fringe element:
[video=youtube;nLKovcqeMbQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLKovcqeMbQ[/video]

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

The two major Catalan banks moved their headquarters out of Catalunya yesterday by the way

Voted and approved a potential move, not moved, and that is their free choice by the way. You see how freedom of choice works? You want to leave? Then leave, no hard feelings.

 

[f2wohf]

The vote itself was violently oppressed, 100% of Catalans were not allowed to vote by the national government. So you are right, the debate stops there, grant them independence seeing as nobody was allowed to officially support the status quo ....

But you are right of course, this is just some minor fringe element:
[video=youtube;nLKovcqeMbQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLKovcqeMbQ[/video]

Violently ? Most of the people hurt have been shown to be scams.

A woman pretending to have a broken finger actually had it before the vote.

In total, something like less than 10 people spent the night at the hospital, over 2.6 million voting.

Remember that the nationalists don’t even have a majority at the Catalan Parliament, their declaration of Monday wouldn’t have happened anyway.

It’s only posture from Puigdemont (who’s going to end up in jail with the head of the Mossos who’s already in court for sedition).

Just translate and read that https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/10/05/catalunya/1507204713_891699.html

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Violently ? Most of the people hurt have been shown to be scams

Yeah the live footage of people being bloodied with batons was totally staged ... :wtf:

 

[C4Cat]

Will the gov/courts ever allow the catalans a referendum so it's legitimate?

Doubt it

 

[f2wohf]

Doubt it

The Catalan Parliament had a legitimate vote a few years ago, which failed.

The separatists just ask for a new vote pretty much every year...

 

[access]

Yeah the live footage of people being bloodied with batons was totally staged ... :wtf:

of course! lol!

nothing to see here move along, everything is ok, go back to your homes please.

I like the way the separatist branding makes it way back in, in an attempt to alienate a group of people. just like some other incident still ongoing...

 

[ShaunSA]

Doubt it

Why not? Surely if they're that confident the majority of Catalans don't want to leave that would be the easiest way to prove it?