China gifts SA with R370bn

Seriously

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And yet the Chinese through investment loans still ended by getting them to hand a port over to China...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/world/asia/china-sri-lanka-port.html
Chinese strategy. No doubt.

......... an apparent move to curb China’s influence in the Pacific........
......... China has been showering billions of dollars in infrastructure loans to tiny island nations across the Pacific Ocean. The region is considered strategically important as a maritime gateway to Asia.

How would those Islands pay it back?
 

f2wohf

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They wont . Everbody knows that . Thats why China invest in losers. They cant pay back their debt and Chona takes over. And our "businessman" Cyril Moronphosa can't see it.
I can only see two options then:

- Europe, the US and Asia are top losers and Africa a clear winner;
- Either you are completely ignorant and speak total BS.

Capture.JPG
 

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freddster

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I can only see two options then:

- Europe, the US and Asia are top losers and Africa a clear winner;
- Either you are completely ignorant and speak total BS.

View attachment 558003
I didn't say everywhere they invest are losers. They're all over Africa and we all know how things are in Africa. Zim? Naaa. Zaire naaa, Sudan naaaa ... Depends on where in Europe, not every country in Europe is an economic powerhouse. You say US, the map says North America, circle is also not even in US. You want to clarify?
 

f2wohf

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I didn't say everywhere they invest are losers. They're all over Africa and we all know how things are in Africa. Zim? Naaa. Zaire naaa, Sudan naaaa ... Depends on where in Europe, not every country in Europe is an economic powerhouse. You say US, the map says North America, circle is also not even in US. You want to clarify?
And Glencore, and Trafigura, and Total, and Louis Dreyfus and all the commodity companies invest in crap countries because that's where the commodities are found.

They don't invest in power houses obviously:

Data show that the U.S., U.K. and Germany remain the top destinations of the Chinese outbound investments. China’s ODI to Europe hit a new high of $99.9bn from announced M&A transactions, more than four times of Europe’s ODI in China. China’s acquisitions in the North America also hit an unprecedented $68.8bn, with a large percentage, $45.6bn in total, going to the U.S.
http://www.chinagoabroad.com/en/article/22555

Here's the FDI for investments in SA by country, only losers invest here too and China is obviously taking over (I mean they're only the 5th investor while being the 2nd world power...):



Stop ridiculing yourself and read before posting please.
 

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freddster

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And Glencore, and Trafigura, and Total, and Louis Dreyfus and all the commodity companies invest in crap countries because that's where the commodities are found.

They don't invest in power houses obviously:



http://www.chinagoabroad.com/en/article/22555

Here's the FDI for investments in SA by country, only losers invest here too and China is obviously taking over (I mean they're only the 5th investor while being the 2nd world power...):



Stop ridiculing yourself and read before posting please.
And with what is SA going to pay back? Airport? Harbour? Cities? What what happens with investments, you seem to miss that? They want returns? Do you know what that is? Speak of ridiculing?
 

f2wohf

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And with what is SA going to pay back? Airport? Harbour? Cities? What what happens with investments, you seem to miss that? They want returns? Do you know what that is? Speak of ridiculing?
1. It's impossible for SA to pay back in assets (unlike Sri Lanka or Zambia who do not have such laws), it's strictly forbidden (standard clause of a section 33 or 120 contract which are the contracts for investors):

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2. The R370Bn are far from all being loans. They are a cumulation of all the planned investments and loans from Chinese statal and private entities mostly divided between:
- loans to Eskom/Transnet (repayable in cash only as per the State Liability Act)
- infrastructure investments (usually payable by the user such as tolls, electricity purchases, water purchases...)
- private investment (fully private and not payable at all by the state).

The major part of it is the private investment.

3. Even with R370Bn of Chinese FDI to SA (25Bn $), SA has a FDI stock of 150Bn $ (https://en.portal.santandertrade.com/establish-overseas/south-africa/foreign-investment), Chinese still won't be the first investor in SA, US and some European countries will still be ahead.
 
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freddster

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1. It's impossible for SA to pay back in assets (unlike Sri Lanka or Zambia who do not have such laws), it's strictly forbidden (standard clause of a section 33 or 120 contract which are the contracts for investors):

View attachment 558015

2. The R370Bn are far from all being loans. They are a cumulation of all the planned investments and loans from Chinese statal and private entities mostly divided between:
- loans to Eskom/Transnet (repayable in cash only as per the State Liability Act)
- infrastructure investments (usually payable by the user such as tolls, electricity purchases, water purchases...)
- private investment (fully private and not payable at all by the state).

The major part of it is the private investment.

3. Even from R370Bn of Chinese FDI to SA (25Bn $), SA has a FDI stock of 150Bn $ (https://en.portal.santandertrade.com/establish-overseas/south-africa/foreign-investment), Chinese still won't be the first investor in SA, US and some European countries will still be ahead.
iT ALL looks good... I don't think so. Youre dealing with the ANC, and China. I've said it a long time ago, nothing good can come from China in this country.
 

f2wohf

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iT ALL looks good... I don't think so. Youre dealing with the ANC, and China. I've said it a long time ago, nothing good can come from China in this country.
I guess you don't have a phone (China), Internet (probably with Chinese tech) or anything Chinese that comes in this country? You don't use Cell C either or Vodacom or any operator equipped and/or financed for years by China.

China is simply the second largest economic power in the world and has long been focused on itself and is now trying to become the second largest investor worldwide. Like the US or Europe did.

You're stubborn and take 2 examples of Chinese investments that went sideways to characterize all Chinese investments worlwide. It's called generalization, ignorance and lack of research. If I encounter one rude guy, I don't call his entire nationality or race rude.

PS: I don't even ask you to come with facts but you could at least make an effort to get your typo correctly when somebody you're discussing with does a crapload of research to answer to you, it's basic courtesy.
 
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f2wohf

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By the way, a huge part of it seems to be very vague:

“We’ve signed as you have witnessed several agreements and memorandums of understanding that intended to further deepen our relations, including investment commitments that have been struck to the value of $14.7 billion.”
https://ewn.co.za/2018/07/24/china-to-invest-usd14-7bn-in-sa-says-ramaphosa

Signing MOUs is a non binding commitment and will be subject plenty of feasibility, technical, environmental, financial studies who must all get the green lights from the boards & investments committees of the investor, the banks and insurances. By experience 80%+ of projects failed to pass the MOU stage and are not viable.

The final total investment might only be 100 billion or less in the end.

I literally have tens of billions or rands of signed MOUs that were never pursued or for projects that end up not being feasible in my computer.
 

surface

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I guess you don't have a phone (China), Internet (probably with Chinese tech) or anything Chinese that comes in this country? You don't use Cell C either or Vodacom or any operator equipped and/or financed for years by China.
I confess to being biased against Chinese products years ago but have changed opinion over years. This is the article that triggered to start with. https://kenrockwell.com/tech/china.htm I suspect many here could be biased like I was.

PS: I don't even ask you to come with facts but you could at least make an effort to get your typo correctly when somebody you're discussing with does a crapload of research to answer to you, it's basic courtesy.
I doubt about this person you responded to but I am sure many here will join me in saying that your posts on this and many other topics have been very educational and exceptionally factual. So - thank you.
 

f2wohf

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I confess to being biased against Chinese products years ago but have changed opinion over years. This is the article that triggered to start with. https://kenrockwell.com/tech/china.htm I suspect many here could be biased like I was.
You get what you pay for TBH. If you pay for an iPhone or a top Huawei or a One + One you get that. If you pay for a Fong Kong 20$, you get 20$ worth. Chinese can manufacture the best as they can manufacture the worst depending on the requirements of the clients.

I've visited probably a dozen factories of electrical equipment in China and all were equipped with the latest German manufacturing robots, clean like a laboratory and full of latest tech. The South African manufacturers I've on the other hand were 10 notch under.

It's really a matter of wanting cheap, easily breakable or expensive durable stuff.


I doubt about this person you responded to but I am sure many here will join me in saying that your posts on this and many other topics have been very educational and exceptionally factual. So - thank you.
Thanks a lot, it makes me feel useful. I'm tired of just seeing unfounded opinions, assumptions presented as facts and other non senses that are striving since a few years and IMHO are the biggest danger for modern societies (if you're interested in that, this report is a gem https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/information_manipulation_rvb_cle838736.pdf ).
 

TelkomUseless

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and a little bit syphoned off to Luthuli house for the elections perhaps.
:sneaky:
I found the comedian :p. A little? R370bn to be spend by ANC Goverment on themselves/Guptas/Tendepreneurs. I highly doubt China cares where the money goes.. as long as they get their resources.
 
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