Colonialism wasn't all bad‚ says Helen Zille

Garson007

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Exactly many bad stuff helped shaped the human race. We also learn from our mistakes the hard way most of the time.

WW2 gave the world Nazi Germany and the manhattan project which was the most atrocious use of science till this date. It was used to kill thousands of innocent people and their families and destroy thousands more in the proceeding years. Yet the technology gave us a amazing energy source, the ability to treat certain cancers, almost all atomic based science and from a weapon meant to target civilisations.

I hate the crime but also see how we benefit from it. And Japan now runs nuclear powerplants along the rest of the world.
I don't disagree with you. But it's like Merkel or Hollande (as I've mentioned earlier in the thread) to shine a positive light on the Third Reich. It's absurd.

The Manhattan project on the other hand makes the average American proud. I feel I don't need to explain why.
 
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FrankieK

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When/if the vast majority of the country attains high standard of living I'll bet most won't care at all. The reason why some MyBBers can so flippantly bring up their own ancestors being oppressed in the past is because they suffer next to no socioeconomic consequences in thepresent. Many SAs still feel the effects of being descendants of the vanquished and respond to such attitudes like Zille's angrily.

Which brings us back to Helen's tweet. Why has a country like Singapore managed to overcome (and subsequently prosper) the "scourge" of colonialism, yet SA managed to fark it up six-love?
 

Garson007

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When/if the vast majority of the country attains high standard of living I'll bet most won't care at all. The reason why some MyBBers can so flippantly bring up their own ancestors being oppressed in the past is because they suffer next to no socioeconomic consequences in thepresent. Many SAs still feel the effects of being descendants of the vanquished and respond to such attitudes like Zille's angrily.
I think this is merely a generational issue. Identity is becoming important again.
 

Knyro

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Which brings us back to Helen's tweet. Why has a country like Singapore managed to overcome (and subsequently prosper) the "scourge" of colonialism, yet SA managed to fark it up six-love?

Many other countries haven't either, including several Asian and South American countries that are still reeling from colonialism, and a society rigged to benefit the descendants of the colonists while keeping everyone else at the bottom.

The smug attitude from people like Zille isn't helping though.

EDIT:

Again, ironic in her case because she wouldn't acknowledge the "benefits" brought about by Adolf Hitler.
 
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FrankieK

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Many other countries haven't either, including several Asian and South American countries that are still reeling from colonialism, and a society rigged to benefit the descendants of the colonists while keeping everyone else at the bottom.

The smug attitude from people like Zille isn't helping though.

Ok, but why has Singas managed to to do so well? Should we follow the example of those who farked it up or follow the example of Singapore?

As JFK said: "...not because they are easy, but because they are hard...".
 

Knyro

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Ok, but why has Singas managed to to do so well? Should we follow the example of those who farked it up or follow the example of Singapore?

As JFK said: "...not because they are easy, but because they are hard...".

Oh yeah, I could talk your ear off about Lee Kwon Yew all day. :D

However this is not how you gain sympathizers to your cause. If you want your country to be like Singapore why would you bring colonialism up in such a flippant manner? The narrative could have been different like "overcoming oppression", "hard work", "coming together as one", "education", "let's be like Singapore!" etc. in a positive light instead of "why can't you morons be like that?".

As a politician she should know better.
 

Swa

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Absolute nonsense. But ok, I'm sure an anonymous teen going by the name Swa on mybb is far more informed than a harvard university professor. Swa, who doesn't know what a fact is This is not alternative facts, it's all pure speculation but some people speculate based on a deeper understanding of historical forces and geographical and economic realities while others, like Swa just make up **** to support their bigotry.
I'm sure you're aware that even professors don't always agree especially when it's not verifiable things like maths or chemistry. What I said about other African countries without a colonial influence is fact, unfortunately. And it's a far better parameter to speculate on than Zulus discovering gold mining. The only bigot here is you.

So black people aren't fighting for water, health care and universities? Nice to know. Now the white guy is said to have physically attacked the black woman? ROFLcopter, let her go and lay a charge then.

Alternative facts indeed. Please name one African country that was never ever colonized?

EDIT: I'm not saying anything about the good or bad of colonialism, just the correctness of the assertion that many African countries were never colonized.
Liberia and Ethiopia?

I want to employ you as my personal sexslave. I will feed you. There's your benefit.
For some people both of those are benefits, just saying... :D

Writing spread from China to Japan. No colonisation.
Spreading being the operative word. Face it, colonialism is just another way in which things spread. It's rare that something gets invented more than once in different places. What did any of the Bantu nations invent though?

Along with horrible experiences for the colonised that still affect their descendants negatively to this day. Which is why expecting them to be grateful is foolishness and counter-productive to building a unified South Africa.
Pray tell, how does it affect them today? As has been mentioned already most can't even remember apartheid let alone colonialism. It's all stories that are being told, most of it incorrect as well as we have seen on plenty of occasions. Everyone however is content on using the products of colonialism like universities, piped water, electricity etc. while the negatives have disappeared for everyone alive today. So what are these horrible experiences? Oh wait, must be white minority capital again... :rolleyes:

*sigh* It's got nothing to do with political correctness. It has to do with history.

Edit: If an enemy of the roman empire still existed today. Say Gaul. Then they would still today hate the Romans.
That would be equally irrational, unless they were still enemies of Rome. To counter your example, how many Afrikaners still hate the British today? Practically none. Get over yourselves. Most of the world have had some sort of occupation but they got past it. It's only this subset of society that I see being left behind by the future because they keep clinging to the past.

Missionary work would have happened in the absence of colonialism too. All these benefits you're talking about happened despite colonialism, not because of it. The colonialists didn't build all this infrastructure to benefit anyone except themselves and often attempted to actively stop the use of this infrastructure by the locals, to prevent the locals from gaining the knowledge they brought with them. How much faster would Africa have developed if infrastructure, technology and education had been encouraged, shared, traded and developed among the local populations under local leadership, instead of being kept for the Europeans only, people who considered the local populations as either nothing but cheap labour or actual pests getting in the way of their plans?
Pray tell as well, how much faster would Africa have developed is it was left up to the locals. When Jan landed here there was literally fokol besides a bunch of Bantu tribes fighting it out. There was no cooperation between local populations and local leadership to speak of and nothing was being developed, AT ALL!
 

Moosedrool

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Again, ironic in her case because she wouldn't acknowledge the "benefits" brought about by Adolf Hitler.

260px-VW_logo_during_the_1930s.svg.png
 

porchrat

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Oh yeah, I could talk your ear off about Lee Kwon Yew all day. :D

However this is not how you gain sympathizers to your cause. If you want your country to be like Singapore why would you bring colonialism up in such a flippant manner? The narrative could have been different like "overcoming oppression", "hard work", "coming together as one", "education", "let's be like Singapore!" etc. in a positive light instead of "why can't you morons be like that?".

As a politician she should know better.
because it wasn't simply about us being like Singapore. She was specifically addressing the current political attitude of blaming colonialism for our ills instead of taking responsibility for our future and doing something proactive to better it. Looking forward and not backward. She used Singapore as an example of what this country could be like if we would just stop looking for someone to blame and instead look at fixing things.
 

Knyro

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because it wasn't simply about us being like Singapore. She was specifically addressing the current political attitude of blaming colonialism for our ills instead of taking responsibility for our future and doing something proactive to better it. Looking forward and not backward. She used Singapore as an example of what this country could be like if we would just stop looking for someone to blame and instead look at fixing things.

Again you can spin this in many different ways. Presentation is key in politics. The way she went about it was stupid, I'm sure many of us here could have predicted the reaction she got.

And she wouldn't do the same with the Nazis, the filthy hypocrite.
 

porchrat

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Again you can spin this in many different ways. Presentation is key in politics. The way she went about it was stupid, I'm sure many of us here could have predicted the reaction she got.

And she wouldn't do the same with the Nazis, the filthy hypocrite.
You were asking why she spoke about colonialism in that tweet. I have addressed that point. Acknowledge it instead of shifting the goalposts to now address her method of presentation.

Incidentally there was nothing wrong with her presentation. Her words have been twisted. Examples of it in this thread are quite representative of what I'm talking about. There have been insinuations that she said all sort sof things she didn't say. She didn't say colonialism was a good thing, she didn't say it was necessary, she didn't say we should be appreciative of colonialism etc. etc.. It is ridiculous that our society is so intellectually barren that people could get away with the idiotic crap they've said around this tweet.

EDIT: also yes she is a hypocrite. That however does not impact on the veracity of her tweet. There were beneficial aspects to colonialism. Heck little in life is all bad.
 
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Swa

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Oh yeah, I could talk your ear off about Lee Kwon Yew all day. :D

However this is not how you gain sympathizers to your cause. If you want your country to be like Singapore why would you bring colonialism up in such a flippant manner? The narrative could have been different like "overcoming oppression", "hard work", "coming together as one", "education", "let's be like Singapore!" etc. in a positive light instead of "why can't you morons be like that?".

As a politician she should know better.
You forget how this started. Singapore doesn't deny its colonial past or how it benefited them and they can discuss it rationally. Colonialism wasn't brought up in a flippant manner at all but as usual some super sensitive idiots can't have a rational discussion and turned it into a huge issue. Please watch the video of John Cleese.
 

Knyro

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You were asking why she spoke about colonialism in that tweet. I have addressed that point. Acknowledge it instead of shifting the goalposts. There was nothing wrong with her presentation. Her words have been twisted in this thread alone to insinuate that she said all sort sof things she didn't say. She didn't say colonialism was a good thing, she didn't say it was necessary, she didn't say we should be appreciative of colonialism etc. etc.. It is ridiculous that our society is so intellectually barren that people could get away with the idiotic crap they've said around this tweet.

I said "in such a flippant manner". Read my posts properly.

EDIT:

And again, she wouldn't acknowledge the same from the Nazi point of view.
 
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porchrat

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I said "in such a flippant manner". Read my posts properly.
Considering how few characters she had to work with she was very very specific on the point of her tweet:
“For those claiming legacy of colonialism was ONLY negative‚ think of our independent judiciary‚ transport infrastructure‚ piped water etc‚”

She even took the time to emphasize the word "only". Flippant would have been to say something like "hey, stop whinging, coloinialism wasn't a big deal".

Instead this woman outlined examples of the benefits our society gained from colonialism while explicitly highlighting that she wasn't giving it a free pass as a wonderful period in our past.

I believe I have sufficiently addressed your point now.
 

Knyro

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She was very very specific on the point of her tweet:
“For those claiming legacy of colonialism was ONLY negative‚ think of our independent judiciary‚ transport infrastructure‚ piped water etc‚”

She even took the time to emphasize the word "only". Flippant would have been to say something like "hey, stop whinging, coloinialism wasn't a big deal".

Instead this woman outlined examples of the benefits our society gained from colonialism while explicitly highlighting that she wasn't giving it a free pass as a wonderful period in our past.

And when asked to do the same about Hitler, she wouldn't.

She tweeted:

I do not know what positive Hitler produced. He stoked up nationalism and authoritarianism and genocide‚ and destruction

That alone said volumes about her "rational" point of view. And went a long way to people getting angry with her.
 

Vrotappel

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The Japanese got written language from the Chinese, without colonialism.

They got Western knowlege from Europeans, without colonialsm.

Colonialsm is not a necessary factor for the spread of knowledge. What's so hard to understand about this?

Who is saying that colonialism is necessary for the spread of knowledge?
 

Swa

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And when asked to do the same about Hitler, she wouldn't.

She tweeted:



That alone said volumes about her "rational" point of view. And went a long way to people getting angry with her.
She explicitly said she doesn't know. Don't know how you get to her rational point of view when it says more about her knowledge of history. Wtf was Hitler even brought up?
 

Moosedrool

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I don't disagree with you. But it's like Merkel or Hollande (as I've mentioned earlier in the thread) to shine a positive light on the Third Reich. It's absurd.

The Manhattan project on the other hand makes the average American proud. I feel I don't need to explain why.

I haven't seen anyone saying they're proud of colonialism. I haven't seen anyone saying colonialism is necessary, good or even justifiable.

All that i've seen and done is point out some usefull things colonialism brought to a country. The media and the commentards responding irrationally to a rational honest fact concerns me with what type of lies and dishonest people the oposition actually do trust. :erm:
 

Knyro

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Who is saying that colonialism is necessary for the spread of knowledge?

To disprove the notion that "without colonialism, we wouldn't have X".

Because X can be obtained without colonialism, that notion is false.
 
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