Colonialism wasn't all bad‚ says Helen Zille

[saturnz]

That doesn't make any sense because non of the things you have problems with were crimes or criminal at the time. There are worse labels than criminal.

criminal is perfectly acceptable in this context, but we can litigate all day if you wish, I got time

 

[Nick333]

That doesn't make any sense because non of the things you have problems with were crimes or criminal at the time. There are worse labels than criminal.

Funny thing is that slavery in America was only the tail end of a series of "crimes" that started with black people in Africa and was compounded by Muslims before any "crime" could be committed in America. Its a bit odd how Africans and Muslims have been absolved of their responsibility in all this criminality.

 

[Nick333]

so the white people made it illegal to protect the black people, that makes so much sense now...

It does if you don't work from the premise that everything white people do in relation to black people is out of malice.

 

[Vrotappel]

that may be the case, but it certainly did its level best to create the huge income divide we see now

Income is a western concept, try again.

 

[saturnz]

Income is a western concept, try again.

reference?

 

[saturnz]

It does if you don't work from the premise that everything white people do in relation to black people is out of malice.

https://www.cannabis.info/en/blog/harry-j-anslinger-15-ridiculous-quotes-about-marihuana

if you say so man

 

[ponder]

Ending the Slavery Blame-Game

Funny thing is that slavery in America was only the tail end of a series of "crimes" that started with black people in Africa and was compounded by Muslims before any "crime" could be committed in America. Its a bit odd how Africans and Muslims have been absolved of their responsibility in all this criminality.

Nobody likes to hear that.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/23/opinion/23gates.html?_r=0

Ending the Slavery Blame-Game
By HENRY LOUIS GATES Jr.APRIL 22, 2010

Cambridge, Mass.

THANKS to an unlikely confluence of history and genetics — the fact that he is African-American and president — Barack Obama has a unique opportunity to reshape the debate over one of the most contentious issues of America’s racial legacy: reparations, the idea that the descendants of American slaves should receive compensation for their ancestors’ unpaid labor and bondage.

There are many thorny issues to resolve before we can arrive at a judicious (if symbolic) gesture to match such a sustained, heinous crime. Perhaps the most vexing is how to parcel out blame to those directly involved in the capture and sale of human beings for immense economic gain.

While we are all familiar with the role played by the United States and the European colonial powers like Britain, France, Holland, Portugal and Spain, there is very little discussion of the role Africans themselves played. And that role, it turns out, was a considerable one, especially for the slave-trading kingdoms of western and central Africa. These included the Akan of the kingdom of Asante in what is now Ghana, the Fon of Dahomey (now Benin), the Mbundu of Ndongo in modern Angola and the Kongo of today’s Congo, among several others.

For centuries, Europeans in Africa kept close to their military and trading posts on the coast. Exploration of the interior, home to the bulk of Africans sold into bondage at the height of the slave trade, came only during the colonial conquests, which is why Henry Morton Stanley’s pursuit of Dr. David Livingstone in 1871 made for such compelling press: he was going where no (white) man had gone before.

How did slaves make it to these coastal forts? The historians John Thornton and Linda Heywood of Boston University estimate that 90 percent of those shipped to the New World were enslaved by Africans and then sold to European traders. The sad truth is that without complex business partnerships between African elites and European traders and commercial agents, the slave trade to the New World would have been impossible, at least on the scale it occurred.

Continue reading the main story
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Slavery
Advocates of reparations for the descendants of those slaves generally ignore this untidy problem of the significant role that Africans played in the trade, choosing to believe the romanticized version that our ancestors were all kidnapped unawares by evil white men, like Kunta Kinte was in “Roots.” The truth, however, is much more complex: slavery was a business, highly organized and lucrative for European buyers and African sellers alike.

The African role in the slave trade was fully understood and openly acknowledged by many African-Americans even before the Civil War. For Frederick Douglass, it was an argument against repatriation schemes for the freed slaves. “The savage chiefs of the western coasts of Africa, who for ages have been accustomed to selling their captives into bondage and pocketing the ready cash for them, will not more readily accept our moral and economical ideas than the slave traders of Maryland and Virginia,” he warned. “We are, therefore, less inclined to go to Africa to work against the slave trade than to stay here to work against it.”

To be sure, the African role in the slave trade was greatly reduced after 1807, when abolitionists, first in Britain and then, a year later, in the United States, succeeded in banning the importation of slaves. Meanwhile, slaves continued to be bought and sold within the United States, and slavery as an institution would not be abolished until 1865. But the culpability of American plantation owners neither erases nor supplants that of the African slavers. In recent years, some African leaders have become more comfortable discussing this complicated past than African-Americans tend to be.


In 1999, for instance, President Mathieu Kerekou of Benin astonished an all-black congregation in Baltimore by falling to his knees and begging African-Americans’ forgiveness for the “shameful” and “abominable” role Africans played in the trade. Other African leaders, including Jerry Rawlings of Ghana, followed Mr. Kerekou’s bold example.

Our new understanding of the scope of African involvement in the slave trade is not historical guesswork. Thanks to the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database, directed by the historian David Eltis of Emory University, we now know the ports from which more than 450,000 of our African ancestors were shipped out to what is now the United States (the database has records of 12.5 million people shipped to all parts of the New World from 1514 to 1866). About 16 percent of United States slaves came from eastern Nigeria, while 24 percent came from the Congo and Angola.

Through the work of Professors Thornton and Heywood, we also know that the victims of the slave trade were predominantly members of as few as 50 ethnic groups. This data, along with the tracing of blacks’ ancestry through DNA tests, is giving us a fuller understanding of the identities of both the victims and the facilitators of the African slave trade.


For many African-Americans, these facts can be difficult to accept. Excuses run the gamut, from “Africans didn’t know how harsh slavery in America was” and “Slavery in Africa was, by comparison, humane” or, in a bizarre version of “The devil made me do it,” “Africans were driven to this only by the unprecedented profits offered by greedy European countries.”

But the sad truth is that the conquest and capture of Africans and their sale to Europeans was one of the main sources of foreign exchange for several African kingdoms for a very long time. Slaves were the main export of the kingdom of Kongo; the Asante Empire in Ghana exported slaves and used the profits to import gold. Queen Njinga, the brilliant 17th-century monarch of the Mbundu, waged wars of resistance against the Portuguese but also conquered polities as far as 500 miles inland and sold her captives to the Portuguese. When Njinga converted to Christianity, she sold African traditional religious leaders into slavery, claiming they had violated her new Christian precepts.

Did these Africans know how harsh slavery was in the New World? Actually, many elite Africans visited Europe in that era, and they did so on slave ships following the prevailing winds through the New World. For example, when Antonio Manuel, Kongo’s ambassador to the Vatican, went to Europe in 1604, he first stopped in Bahia, Brazil, where he arranged to free a countryman who had been wrongfully enslaved.

African monarchs also sent their children along these same slave routes to be educated in Europe. And there were thousands of former slaves who returned to settle Liberia and Sierra Leone. The Middle Passage, in other words, was sometimes a two-way street. Under these circumstances, it is difficult to claim that Africans were ignorant or innocent.

Given this remarkably messy history, the problem with reparations may not be so much whether they are a good idea or deciding who would get them; the larger question just might be from whom they would be extracted.

So how could President Obama untangle the knot? In David Remnick’s new book “The Bridge: The Life and Rise of Barack Obama,” one of the president’s former students at the University of Chicago comments on Mr. Obama’s mixed feelings about the reparations movement: “He told us what he thought about reparations. He agreed entirely with the theory of reparations. But in practice he didn’t think it was really workable.”

About the practicalities, Professor Obama may have been more right than he knew. Fortunately, in President Obama, the child of an African and an American, we finally have a leader who is uniquely positioned to bridge the great reparations divide. He is uniquely placed to publicly attribute responsibility and culpability where they truly belong, to white people and black people, on both sides of the Atlantic, complicit alike in one of the greatest evils in the history of civilization. And reaching that understanding is a vital precursor to any just and lasting agreement on the divisive issue of slavery reparations.

Henry Louis Gates Jr., a professor at Harvard, is the author of the forthcoming “Faces of America” and “Tradition and the Black Atlantic.”

 

[Swa]

You won't understand if you were brought up with a silver spoon up your behind. That person might need to go to work to provide for that illiterate family so they can at least have food to eat.

No everybody is lucky enough to get a break out of poverty. But this is a discussion that had been had on here many times, so I'm not even going to bother any more.

Believe what you want and be surprised if those different to you dislike you because of your bigotry.

You won't understand if you didn't grow up in an orphanage building yourself up to the historical equivalent of a millionaire like many people throughout history. But some people will continue to play the victim card. There is only one bigot here.

Poverty isn't a problem caused by apartheid.

Poverty is a problem throughout Africa and always has been. Perhaps it's not a coincidence that the only nations who have nothing to show except clay and grass huts are also the only continent that's been colonised almost on a whole. It's not the stronger nations conquering the weaker ones but more a pattern of the capable ones conquering the incapable ones.

that may be the case, but it certainly did its level best to create the huge income divide we see now

We've also never seen such a large income divide between black people as during the last 20 years. You can't pick who to blame and who not but one is certainly more relevant to the current situation of poverty.

And this discrimination stopped overnight? People were miraculously cured of their prejudice. Or is it something that takes time, and still exists today?

Certainly doesn't seem to be material in the only western country I can recall with a black president.

how is that relevant to my point, you think its perfectly acceptable compensating someone to stop their slave practises?

I suppose we should start paying criminals to stop engaging in crime

Are you aware of how many rehabilitation programs there are both state sponsored and not for criminals both inside and outside prison?

Funny thing is that slavery in America was only the tail end of a series of "crimes" that started with black people in Africa and was compounded by Muslims before any "crime" could be committed in America. Its a bit odd how Africans and Muslims have been absolved of their responsibility in all this criminality.

Let's see them try to work out of that one... or perhaps it will be crickets again...

 

[Hamish McPanji]

Certainly doesn't seem to be material in the only western country I can recall with a black president.

You're talking about that Kenyan Muslim of Indonesian origin? The one all the SJW'S voted for? Everyone absolutely loved him. They had tea parties and everything for him. The bastid didn't even bother attending

 

[Nick333]

You're talking about that Kenyan Muslim of Indonesian origin? The one all the SJW'S voted for? Everyone absolutely loved him. They had tea parties and everything for him. The bastid didn't even bother attending

Yeah, because he's the only US president that was hated by almost half the country. :crylaugh:

Anyway, even if the Tea Party were a bunch of racists, they the KKK, and all the shyt Lords in the universe didn't stop him getting elected President. Twice!

 

[Hamish McPanji]

Yeah, because he's the only US president that was hated by almost half the country. :crylaugh:

Anyway, even if the Tea Party were a bunch of racists, they the KKK, and all the shyt Lords in the universe didn't stop him getting elected President. Twice!

I wasn't the one who brought it up as an example. Ask Swa.

And he got voted in twice. Despite any prejudice, not that prejudice didn't exist. And I think my reply to him is clear enough. Not everyone can pretend that they inspired an entire movement.

 

[Swa]

I wasn't the one who brought it up as an example. Ask Swa.

And he got voted in twice. Despite any prejudice, not that prejudice didn't exist. And I think my reply to him is clear enough. Not everyone can pretend that they inspired an entire movement.

Prejudice didn't stop him staying for two terms. There's also prejudice against the current one so what's you point exactly?

 

[Nick333]

I wasn't the one who brought it up as an example. Ask Swa.

And he got voted in twice. Despite any prejudice, not that prejudice didn't exist. And I think my reply to him is clear enough. Not everyone can pretend that they inspired an entire movement.

Swa didn't claim it didn't exist, he claimed it was immaterial. He was responding to your response to my claim that it doesn't matter. You don't counter that claim by proving it exists.

 

[Hamish McPanji]

Prejudice didn't stop him staying for two terms. There's also prejudice against the current one so what's you point exactly?

Prejudice didn't stop him, so it doesn't exist in any influencing form? Is that your argument? Did he win by 90% , or was it 70%? Just remind me, I might have forgotten.

And there is prejudice against the current one too. I haven't denied that. I'm not the one arguing there is no prejudice. Just that it is more apparent against the minorities in the US.

 

[Hamish McPanji]

Swa didn't claim it didn't exist, he claimed it was immaterial. He was responding to your response to my claim that it doesn't matter. You don't counter that claim by proving it exists.

It is immaterial to anyone who is not a victim of it. You made much the same statement, yet didn't actually prove it either. You stated your opinion. And I countered with mine .

Much like the "Jap" is not offensive story, you're deciding for the people who are on the other end of the stick

 

[Nick333]

It is immaterial to anyone who is not a victim of it. You made much the same statement, yet didn't actually prove it either. You stated your opinion. And I countered with mine .

Much like the "Jap" is not offensive story, you're deciding for the people who are on the other end of the stick

Who is a victim of it? Give us an example. Swa gave an example of a black American who became the most powerful person in the world. Show us someone who wasn't able to go to school and matriculate because of prejudice. Show us a black person, who finished school, that cant get a job because of prejudice.

 

[Nick333]

[video=youtube_share;phPXTWJhnYM]https://youtu.be/phPXTWJhnYM[/video]

 

[Hamish McPanji]

Who is a victim of it? Give us an example. Swa gave an example of a black American who became the most powerful person in the world. Show us someone who wasn't able to go to school and matriculate because of prejudice. Show us a black person, who finished school, that cant get a job because of prejudice.

Swa gave us an example of a black American who got a job despite being targeted based on his race and ethnicity. Not an example of insignificant racial prejudice. The racial language at the time was quite apparent...luckily 52% of the population ignored it.

Cases regarding school related issues regarding desegregation some of which have been pending for 50+ years due to an unwillingness of states to abide by the law are plenty. And a lot have not been resolved. Please not, this list is not comprehensive

Some have to abide by consent orders. And so are still pending

E.g
Tennessee , Geier & United States v. Sundquist 2001,

Lee & United States v. Macon County Board of Education (Clay County)

United States v. West Carroll Parish School District from 1991 to 2006

United States v. Tunica County School District , 2006 based on the location of the school bring built to favour a certain race

United States v. State of Mississippi (Simpson County School District) - employment related

United States v. State of Mississippi (McComb Municipal Separate School District), 2008

United States v. Covington County School District, 2006

Cowan & United States v. Bolivar County Board of Education No. 4 (Cleveland School District)

Coppedge & United States v. Franklin County Board of Education, 2013

Barnhardt & U.S. v. Meridian Municipal School District, 2013

Ayers & United States v. Fordice, 2002...$503 million settlement


Other more straight forward cases where students were being harrased include University of California, San Diego 2012
Falcon School District 49 , 2014
There are a few others under this category.

Yes, this prejudice is not apparent to you, because you are not a victim of it. I don't think you actually bothered to read anything about it either, as you believe whatever the right wing rags tell you
Your move, Nick

Sorry, had to step out.

Public

US Secret Service settles race discrimination case with black agents

Brendan O'Brien

REUTERS/KEVIN LAMARQUE

(Reuters) - The U.S. Secret Service has agreed to pay $24 million to settle a 17-year-old federal lawsuit filed by a group of black agents who accused the agency of racial discrimination in its employment practices.

The agreement settles a protracted legal battle that began in 2000 when 10 black agents filed a lawsuit in a Washington D.C. federal court, claiming the Secret Service had violated the civil rights of black agents for decades while ignoring their complaints, court records showed.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN152175

Private

Bass Pro, EEOC reach $10.5 million settlement

L.M. Sixel*|*July 24, 2017


The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission says it found a pattern of not hiring minorities across Bass Pro's stores nationwide, including two in the Houston area.

Bass Pro Outdoor World, the sporting goods retailer with 82 stores, agreed to pay $10.5 million to settle a nationwide class action case brought in Houston by the*Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which accused the outdoor outfitter of rejecting qualified black and Hispanic job applicants and retaliating against employees who objected to the alleged practice.

https://m.chron.com/business/bizfee...OC-reach-10-5-million-settlement-11344980.php

Should I continue with this? What was that about prejudice not mattering? It not affecting jobs, schooling, what else did I miss?

 

[Nick333]

Swa gave us an example of a black American who got a job despite being targeted based on his race and ethnicity. Not an example of insignificant racial prejudice. The racial language at the time was quite apparent...luckily 52% of the population ignored it.

Cases regarding school related issues regarding desegregation some of which have been pending for 50+ years due to an unwillingness of states to abide by the law are plenty. And a lot have not been resolved. Please not, this list is not comprehensive

Some have to abide by consent orders. And so are still pending

E.g
Tennessee , Geier & United States v. Sundquist 2001,

Lee & United States v. Macon County Board of Education (Clay County)

United States v. West Carroll Parish School District from 1991 to 2006

United States v. Tunica County School District , 2006 based on the location of the school bring built to favour a certain race

United States v. State of Mississippi (Simpson County School District) - employment related

United States v. State of Mississippi (McComb Municipal Separate School District), 2008

United States v. Covington County School District, 2006

Cowan & United States v. Bolivar County Board of Education No. 4 (Cleveland School District)

Coppedge & United States v. Franklin County Board of Education, 2013

Barnhardt & U.S. v. Meridian Municipal School District, 2013

Ayers & United States v. Fordice, 2002...$503 million settlement


Other more straight forward cases where students were being harrased include University of California, San Diego 2012
Falcon School District 49 , 2014
There are a few others under this category.

Yes, this prejudice is not apparent to you, because you are not a victim of it. I don't think you actually bothered to read anything about it either, as you believe whatever the right wing rags tell you
Your move, Nick

Sorry, had to step out.

Labelling opposition to desegregation is dishonest for two reasons.

Let's just talk about what desegregation, or bussing as it's otherwise known, is. It's a sneaky way for the federal government to force school districts to spend funds derived from local taxes in wealthier areas on the education of kid's from less wealthy areas. So, unless you think that the unwillingness of people to allow their local (important distinction) taxes to be missapropriated is racist (and you probably do actually) you're guilty of making a rather egregious and uncharitable assumption.

The other reason claiming that opposition to desgregation is dishonest is that opposition to desegregation is not a white thing:

In the 1990s, a series of Supreme Court decisions made it much easier for school districts to get out from under court supervision. During that decade, school districts and groups of parents both went to court to fight desegregation orders. In a few cases, including in Louisville, the main parties fighting busing were black. "It's not surprising," said Michael Petrilli, author of The Diverse Schools Dilemma and executive vice president of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, a think tank that advocates for school choice. "These court orders are by and large unpopular with parents, both white and black."

Another consequence of desegregation was the closure of schools in poor areas and the loss of employment for qualified staff that went with the closures. Desegregation robs poor areas of their schools. Instead of finding a way of improving neighbourhoods, the architects of desgration just outsourced the problems to wealthier neighbourhoods.

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/12/was-brown-v-board-a-failure/265939/

Public



https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN152175

Private



https://m.chron.com/business/bizfee...OC-reach-10-5-million-settlement-11344980.php

Should I continue with this? What was that about prejudice not mattering? It not affecting jobs, schooling, what else did I miss?

Yes, and white people have similarly been barred from specific jobs through AA. It kind of evens out.
No one is condemned to perputual unemplyment in the US because they are black( or any other race). You still haven't proved otherwise. What you have proved is that prejudiced practices of employers is punishable and punished.

The approach of adding up as many examples of prejudice (or what you can easily assume is prejudice) so that you can absolve minorities of their own responsibilly for their situation doesn't actually solve the problems that minorities have. Many minorities have faced the same problems and managed to pull themselves up out of poverty through education. No degreed black person faces a life of perpetual poverty in the US.

 

[Hamish McPanji]

Labelling opposition to desegregation is dishonest for two reasons.


The approach of adding up as many examples of prejudice (or what you can easily assume is prejudice) so that you can absolve minorities of their own responsibilly for their situation doesn't actually solve the problems that minorities have. Many minorities have faced the same problems and managed to pull themselves up out of poverty through education. No degreed black person faces a life of perpetual poverty in the US.

Well, this is not unexpected. Just because you personally doesn't recognise it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and doesn't negatively influence people's lives. You said it didn't matter. If I provided 1 example, you would say it's only 1 example which is why I posted quite a few. Some of those are actually examples of racial segregation of students within the same year .

Then you criticise the practice of adding up the many examples of where this is occurring. To anyone with a clear mind on this it show a trend of systemic and largely ignored prejudice. Only when addressed in court is there any attention paid to it. But they ignore the courts as well, which is why some of these cases go back to the 70's. But i know it doesn't suit your opinion, so that will be ignored.

And did you know that degreed black people are more likely to complain about discrimination than nom degreed people? Maybe because they are muscling on jobs that are deemed suitable for a particular race alone.

So when you post your opinion on what is clearly happening , at least have the decency of posting evidence of sorts. The only "evidence" i saw was a president who overcame a lot of the prejudice to win by a 2% margin