Colonialism wasn't all bad‚ says Helen Zille

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access

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afrikaans concentration camps where not all bad, it gave birth to extreme determination for people to uplift themselves. cut out any and all possibilities of something like that happening again and look after themselves only from then on. the rest is history.
 
Swa

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cr@zydude said:
That's the reason I brought it up. She wants to discuss the positives of colonialism, but refuses to acknowledge positives that came out of what the Nazis did.



I'm not comparing the two. I'm stating the certain outcomes occured because of each event. Zille wants to show that positives came from colonialism, I ask if she would do the same for the holocaust.

Also, has the DA forgotten the supposed agreement with Zille about tweeting? I thought that she wasn't allowed to do this, but the DA doesn't seem to mind this time.
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Not the same thing though is it? The holocaust was an event, just like apartheid was an event in SA history. If you want to say that some good indirectly and unintentionally came from the holocaust you have to say that some good came from apartheid. Doesn't work in your favour does it?

The correct comparison is with colonialism and the Nazi party which is the first time I have seen someone state it. Although I think you did it unintentionally. The Nazi party did have some positives among the negatives just like colonialism had positives and negatives. I don't expect anybody to know the positives though so why ask them the question in the first place?

C4Cat said:
I am yes, black people here, not so much - if some have benefitted, they are beneficiaries of the fall of colonialism.
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It's both. For anybody to have benefited it had to have happened first and then fell. Without either of those there would be no positives. Funny how it's the black groups that keep complaining about this when they actually fought WITH the colonialists and were the least affected by them. Not that those groups raising their tongues are actually South Africans mind you. The coloureds who were among those most affected seem to be embracing their history and are trying to make the most of their legacy.
 
ponder

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Reality is every place on this planet has been colonised several times over in several millennia, not everybody is crying.

The poms made a positive tv series about their colonisation called What the Romans Did for Us
 
ponder

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Knyro said:
Easy to make light of it and appreciate any positives when you're the one currently on top.
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I'm not endorsing it, merely stating that every place on this planet has been colonised several times over and some see the positives it brought. Is the last colonised plight bigger than those that preceded them? I think not, locally you just have to go back to the boers vs the english to see the animosity to the point of wanting to support the nazis in ww2 and then changing the whole political landscape towards afrikaner nationalism & apartheid. There are thousands more such examples across the globe and it's not even racial, it could be tribal or religious for example.

The reality is more advanced civilisations have always dominated the lesser advanced ones through millennia, it's not nice but it happens and I'm willing to bet money that the same thing will happen the day earth encounters aliens...
 
Spizz

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Swa said:
Who are the ones currently on top in SA?
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This highlights perfectly the hypocrisy at play in South Africa today.

We are constantly reminded that white folks had a great time living the life of Riley with the fruits of colonialism, but now those same fruits magically disappear as we are told that colonialism brought nothing positive? Do we live in a barren desert all of a sudden or do we not have first class infrastructure, services and facilities that are not even closely matched anywhere in Africa?

Surely you can't have one without the other. Either whites never had it good or colonialism brought some positives.
 
C4Cat

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Spizz said:
This highlights perfectly the hypocrisy at play in South Africa today.

We are constantly reminded that white folks had a great time living the life of Riley with the fruits of colonialism, but now those same fruits magically disappear as we are told that colonialism brought nothing positive? Do we live in a barren desert all of a sudden or do we not have first class infrastructure, services and facilities that are not even closely matched anywhere in Africa?

Surely you can't have one without the other. Either whites never had it good or colonialism brought some positives.
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You're confused about what the 'fruits of colonialism' are, that's all. All these wonderful things that make modern life were not created by colonialism, were not inspired by colonialism or based on colonialism. The oppression and exploitative practices of colonialism were not instrumental in the development of science and technology. The wonderful infrastructure we have here was, admittedly, facilitated by slavery and cheap labour and yes, the enormous amount of wealth taken from these lands, but essentially, colonialism wasn't a necessary prerequisite for the development of the modern Western world. This country would be more advanced and better off today if the European travellers had chosen to share, educate inclusively instead of exploiting, oppressing, stealing and excluding. The fruits you're talking about are not the fruits of colonialism, they are the fruits of science, primarily, and it's because of colonialism that so many had no access to these fruits for so long.
 
rietrot

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C4Cat said:
You're confused about what the 'fruits of colonialism' are, that's all. All these wonderful things that make modern life were not created by colonialism, were not inspired by colonialism or based on colonialism. The oppression and exploitative practices of colonialism were not instrumental in the development of science and technology. The wonderful infrastructure we have here was, admittedly, facilitated by slavery and cheap labour and yes, the enormous amount of wealth taken from these lands, but essentially, colonialism wasn't a necessary prerequisite for the development of the modern Western world. This country would be more advanced and better off today if the European travellers had chosen to share, educate inclusively instead of exploiting, oppressing, stealing and excluding. The fruits you're talking about are not the fruits of colonialism, they are the fruits of science, primarily, and it's because of colonialism that so many had no access to these fruits for so long.
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This is so stupid. You can't separate certain parts of history. Everything we have today is because
1 African tribes killed each other on the way down from central Africa.
2 Jan established his trade post.
3 Some disagreements between the Dutch and British resulting in the great trek.
4 descovery of gold and diamonds and some fighting over that.
5everything in between and before and after that.

Moaning about how unfair history was is completely ridiculous you can't change it and if you could you probably won't even be here today.

If Retief didn't go and fetch Dingane's stolen cattle we probably won't have Zulus today as they would have died in a famine few years later, who knows.
 
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Knyro said:
Easy to make light of it and appreciate any positives when you're the one currently on top.
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Yip. Unfortunately those that benefited from past injustices are quick to tell those that were oppressed and are still struggling today because of that oppression to "get over it, work harder, stop crying" etc.

This is why it is so easy for people like those in the EFF and the ruling party to use race politics to their advantage.
 
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Nicodeamus

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We won’t have a GPS today if it werent for the Nazis. We also won’t have SASOL and DENEL had it not been for Apartheid. We can thank the British for our highly efficient mining sectors and both the dutch and British for a reasonably good market economy and rule of law. Hell it isnt that difficult.
 
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Nicodeamus said:
We won’t have a GPS today if it werent for the Nazis. We also won’t have SASOL and DENEL had it not been for Apartheid. We can thank the British for our highly efficient mining sectors and both the dutch and British for a reasonably good market economy and rule of law. Hell it isnt that difficult.
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:crylaugh: This ^ type of thinking is what makes Malema's life so easy when he spouts hateful race politics because it conveniently forgets that this countries mining wealth has made foreign companies very rich while using this countries "slave" labour and leaving many miners with serious terminal illnesses behind.
 
Spizz

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C4Cat said:
You're confused about what the 'fruits of colonialism' are, that's all. All these wonderful things that make modern life were not created by colonialism, were not inspired by colonialism or based on colonialism. The oppression and exploitative practices of colonialism were not instrumental in the development of science and technology. The wonderful infrastructure we have here was, admittedly, facilitated by slavery and cheap labour and yes, the enormous amount of wealth taken from these lands, but essentially, colonialism wasn't a necessary prerequisite for the development of the modern Western world. This country would be more advanced and better off today if the European travellers had chosen to share, educate inclusively instead of exploiting, oppressing, stealing and excluding. The fruits you're talking about are not the fruits of colonialism, they are the fruits of science, primarily, and it's because of colonialism that so many had no access to these fruits for so long.
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You are missing my point. Remember, Zille talks of the LEGACY of Apartheid, not the history of it in which none of us had a part in. So regardless of what went on in the past, the fruits are with us today in the form of a fully functioning 'first world' country with infrastructure unparalleled anywhere in the continent. And today, as white people are deemed wealthy and privileged on the back of colonialism, those same benefits are available to all today. So simply put, they are either benefits now or they were not benefits then.

Look how easy it is to deride Zille as a racist based purely on the colour of her skin and a country ready to point the finger at any mention of race. Whites have to understand the lot of a black person or be damned, but the reverse is not true. Is there any thought to why Zille may have her views? She never grew up in a township or in poverty, but she actually did put her neck on the line during Apartheid by challenging the government verbally and in print, and offering her own house as a safe house to black fugitives. She walked the walk with actions in the way she knew how, and now her own legacy is tainted by racists who damn her through the colour of her skin and not her actions just to score a point.

So yes, colonialism WAS bad, but there is no doubt that today it has provided us with the infrastructure and basis to make the country a better one for all.
 
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Willie Trombone

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All of this detracts from the ills of today's government which we can actually have an impact on, but meh... people be blinkered.
 
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ambroseg1 said:
:crylaugh: This ^ type of thinking is what makes Malema's life so easy when he spouts hateful race politics because it conveniently forgets that this countries mining wealth has made foreign companies very rich while using this countries "slave" labour and leaving many miners with serious terminal illnesses behind.
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and a huge environmental liability

I agree, when speaking about positives, we have to balance them with the negatives and vice versa.

Personally, I think Zille is right. However, she comes across reckless and arrogant in the manner she speaks through social media. That sends the wrong perception and often dilutes important points of discussion.
 
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Nicodeamus

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ambroseg1 said:
:crylaugh: This ^ type of thinking is what makes Malema's life so easy when he spouts hateful race politics because it conveniently forgets that this countries mining wealth has made foreign companies very rich while using this countries "slave" labour and leaving many miners with serious terminal illnesses behind.
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War and conquest has always been a laboratory for innovation and technology.

Malema might hate the truth, but honestly why should we constantly lie to ourselves just because someone else likes living in a fantacy land.

Another interesting fact: bantu education was the first widespeead education system in SA. Even being inferior to the old missionary schools, it managed to expand black literacy rates.

India wouldn’t be united had it not been for colonialism.

Siemons used Jewish labour to make mobile technology. Technology is simply a tool and good and bad people can use it. It has zilch to do with morality.

Black elites’s living standards were the highest in the Belgium Kongo, despite the genocide around them.

The list of unpalatable truths are endless. History is complex and Nuanced. People need to talk like adults and grow up a bit.
 
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Nicodeamus said:
War and conquest has always been a laboratory for innovation and technology.

Malema might hate the truth, but honestly why should we constantly lie to ourselves just because someone else likes living in a fantacy land.

Another interesting fact: bantu education was the first widespeead education system in SA. Even being inferior to the old missionary schools, it managed to expand black literacy rates.

India wouldn’t be united had it not been for colonialism.

Siemons used Jewish labour to make mobile technology. Technology is simply a tool and good and bad people can use it. It has zilch to do with technology.

Black elites’s living standards were the highest in the Belgium Kongo, despite the genocide around them.

The list of unpalatable truths are endless. History is complex and Nuanced. People need to talk like adults and grow up a bit.
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You do not tell a rape victim, that rape has its positives due to the advancement in DNA identification. Nobody wants to hear that ****.

You seem to have the same foot-in-mouth disease Zille has. Bantu education was a system that by its design was developed and implemented to keep the education levels of black people far below that of whites. The fact that it raised literacy levels is irrelevant and by no means makes it "not all bad" or defensible. :wtf:
 
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