Sign up with GoogleI think Hamas are wrong not to accept the ceasefire , did they give a reason ? So sad
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Conflict flares up in Gaza again
- Thread starter Grant
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I think Hamas are wrong not to accept the ceasefire , did they give a reason ? So sad
OrbitalDawn
Ulysses Everett McGill
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Invaders? You know Jews lived there for centuries/millennia before any of this, right?
There wasn't a 'Palestine' they could become part of. There was a continuous Arab and Jewish presence in the area for centuries.
They didn't have to become part of Israel, they could have formed an independent Palestinian state, as the UN partition plan planned to do. They chose not to and instead attacked Israel.
Do you hate Arab Nationalism, too?
Interesting , so Marine1 are you saying that the Israelis are wrong taking the additional land post 1948 to today ? And if so how then do you expect the Palestinians to react ?
Grant
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what is the difference between zionism & islamism.
my knowledge is sketchy regards both - wiki serves only to confuse me further on the issue
it would seem to me both have similar religious & cultural ambitions for their respective peoples
Grant
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i have always maintained this.
you cant put marine & i in the same bag, we have similar sentiments (for want of a better word) as well as many differences in opinion.
i am not stating either of us is right or wrong in our opinions.
i have always maintained israel needs to pull out of "annexed" land - and in an an act of good faith, leave the existing infrastructure (call it reparations of sorts) for the palestinians who once lived there to use - not to destroy out of spite
Yes sorry I realized that afterwards and amended my post to Does not matter, u asking Arabs to pack up share and embrace a new world controlled by people that mostly will come from Europe.
Yes I do , Furthermore I was in the Saudi in 2010 and I was disgusted at the arrogance of the Arab towards the Bangladesh who is basically the worker. I am not blinded by these things.
Must admit I dont know , if they similar in approach then I would say they both wrong , I will look deeper into it and get back to you
falcon786
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Yep I was referring to the Zionist state as invaders,Not the indigenous Jews who have every right to be there same as the Palestinians(in fact those Jews were/are Palestinians).
Why separate them if they were living peacefully for centuries?
If the Arabs are kicking others out of their indigenous lands or if minorities are claiming states out of a majorities land or ruling those lands then yes I would hate it too.Did it happen anywhere in modern times though?
Interesting , I would love to hear Marine 1 answer as well , Grantza in your opinion then how should the Palestinians have acted over the years due to the land grabbing which is probably only one portion of the wrongs there.
Well said - FTW !!!!
Electron1
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From : http://www.meforum.org/263/why-jews-fled-the-arab-countries
Edit: this is in response to Falcon786 question quoted below:
Edit: this is in response to Falcon786 question quoted below:
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
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UN AGENCY SAYS GAZA DESTRUCTION 'IMMENSE'
The UN aid agency for Palestinians on Tuesday described the damage wrought by Israel's air offensive on Gaza as "immense", with more than 500 homes razed.
"The level of human losses and destruction in Gaza is really immense," said UNWRA spokesman Sami Mshasha.
"According to our latest figure, we are talking about 174 killed and well over 1,100 injured. This number will increase. The numbers are increasing by hours," he told reporters.
"A good number of those killed and injured are women and children. That is a cause of concern for UNRWA," he added.
The death toll on Tuesday had risen to 192, according to local officials in Gaza.
Mshasha said that 560 homes had been totally destroyed, while thousands of buildings had suffered damage.
Mshasha said that 47 UNRWA facilities had also been damaged by bombing.
A total of 17,000 people had found refuge in 20 schools run by the UN agency, which has sent their GPS coordinates to Israeli authorities.
He called on the warring sides to respect UN buildings.
Israel on Tuesday announced it had accepted an Egyptian ceasefire plan after a week of bombing, but the move was rejected by the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas which controls the territory and has fired a hail of rockets at Israel.
Without a halt to the fighting, Mshasha said, the risk of an Israeli ground assault on the enclave remains, raising the spectre of even greater death and destruction.
In a separate statement, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said the bombing had devastated Gaza's water supply.
"Hundreds of thousands of people in Gaza are now without water. Within days, the entire population of the Strip may be desperately short of water," said Jacques de Maio, who heads ICRC operations in Israel and the Palestinian territories.
"Water and electrical services are also affected as a result of the current hostilities. If they do not stop, the question is not if but when an already beleaguered population will face an acute water crisis," he said in a statement.
Fighting is also preventing technicians from carrying out essential repairs.
Following the deaths of several municipal water technicians, Gaza's water service provider has suspended all field operations until the safety of its staff can be guaranteed, the ICRC said.
"Gaza's water system has been deteriorating for years. The latest attacks are the last straw. Safe drinking water is becoming increasingly scarce in the Strip, just as temperatures are soaring," said ICRC water and sanitation expert Guillaume Pierrehumbert.
"Water is becoming contaminated and sewage is overflowing, bringing a serious risk of disease,"
Source : Sapa-AFP /gq
Date : 15 Jul 2014 15:06
The UN aid agency for Palestinians on Tuesday described the damage wrought by Israel's air offensive on Gaza as "immense", with more than 500 homes razed.
"The level of human losses and destruction in Gaza is really immense," said UNWRA spokesman Sami Mshasha.
"According to our latest figure, we are talking about 174 killed and well over 1,100 injured. This number will increase. The numbers are increasing by hours," he told reporters.
"A good number of those killed and injured are women and children. That is a cause of concern for UNRWA," he added.
The death toll on Tuesday had risen to 192, according to local officials in Gaza.
Mshasha said that 560 homes had been totally destroyed, while thousands of buildings had suffered damage.
Mshasha said that 47 UNRWA facilities had also been damaged by bombing.
A total of 17,000 people had found refuge in 20 schools run by the UN agency, which has sent their GPS coordinates to Israeli authorities.
He called on the warring sides to respect UN buildings.
Israel on Tuesday announced it had accepted an Egyptian ceasefire plan after a week of bombing, but the move was rejected by the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas which controls the territory and has fired a hail of rockets at Israel.
Without a halt to the fighting, Mshasha said, the risk of an Israeli ground assault on the enclave remains, raising the spectre of even greater death and destruction.
In a separate statement, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said the bombing had devastated Gaza's water supply.
"Hundreds of thousands of people in Gaza are now without water. Within days, the entire population of the Strip may be desperately short of water," said Jacques de Maio, who heads ICRC operations in Israel and the Palestinian territories.
"Water and electrical services are also affected as a result of the current hostilities. If they do not stop, the question is not if but when an already beleaguered population will face an acute water crisis," he said in a statement.
Fighting is also preventing technicians from carrying out essential repairs.
Following the deaths of several municipal water technicians, Gaza's water service provider has suspended all field operations until the safety of its staff can be guaranteed, the ICRC said.
"Gaza's water system has been deteriorating for years. The latest attacks are the last straw. Safe drinking water is becoming increasingly scarce in the Strip, just as temperatures are soaring," said ICRC water and sanitation expert Guillaume Pierrehumbert.
"Water is becoming contaminated and sewage is overflowing, bringing a serious risk of disease,"
Source : Sapa-AFP /gq
Date : 15 Jul 2014 15:06
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
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SCARS SHOW AS GAZA'S CHILDREN ENDURE THIRD WAR
The children of the Attar clan have lived through three wars in just over five years, each time fleeing their homes as Israel bombarded their neighborhood in the Palestinian Gaza Strip.
Their psychological scars show. Some act out, others cling to their mothers or withdraw, like 12-year-old Ahmed who sat by himself Monday on a bench in the courtyard of a U.N. school where his family once again sought shelter.
"They bombed very close to my house," said the boy, looking down and avoiding eye contact. "I'm scared."
Experts said it will be increasingly difficult to heal such victims of repeated trauma.
"For the majority of the children (in Gaza), it is the third time around," said Bruce Grant, the chief of child protection for the Palestinian territories in the United Nation's children's agency, UNICEF. "It reduces their ability to be resilient and to bounce back. Some will not find their way back to a sense of normalcy. Fear will become their new norm."
The Attar clan lives in Atatra, a neighborhood in northeastern Gaza, just a few hundred meters from Israel. Gaza militants often launch rockets at Israel from border areas, turning them into flashpoints and frequent targets of Israeli strikes.
Residents of Atatra fled their homes in Israel's three-week military offensive in the winter of 2008-2009, during a week of cross-border fighting in November 2012 and again over the weekend.
After Israeli aircraft dropped leaflets over Atatra on Saturday warning residents to leave, sisters Mariam and Sada Attar bundled a few belongings into plastic bags and rushed out of their homes. They had 10 children in tow, as well as Mariam's husband Omar, who she said suffers from stress-induced psychological disorders and can no longer function normally.
The families sought shelter in the same U.N. school where they stayed during the previous two rounds of fighting. In all, 20 U.N. schools took in more than 17,000 displaced Gazans, many of them children, after Saturday's warnings by Israel that civilians must clear out of northern Gaza.
Members of the Attar clan took over part of the second floor, with more than 40 people sleeping in each classroom. Mariam, Sada, Omar and the children were squeezed into one half of a room, their space demarcated by benches. Another family from the clan stayed in the other half of the room. A blanket draped across an open doorway offered the only measure of privacy.
In the classroom, the scene was chaotic, with children pushing and shoving each other and mothers yelling at them to behave. There was nothing to do for children or grown-ups, except to wait.
Mariam Attar, 35, said they spent the night on the hard floor for lack of mattresses.
She sat on the floor, her back leaning against a wall, and held her youngest, 16-month-old Mahmoud. She said her older children have become clingy, some asking that she accompany them to the communal toilet.
Recalling the latest bombings, she said: "We felt the house was going to fall on top of us and so the children started to scream. I was screaming and my husband was screaming."
Her 14-year-old son Mohammed said the family cowered on the ground in the living room during the bombing to avoid being hit by shrapnel. He said the time passed slowly because they had no electricity or TV.
Mohammed and Ahmed, who is from another branch of the clan, said they and other children often play "Arabs and Jews," fighting each other with toy guns or wooden sticks as make-believe weapons. Arabs always win, the boys said.
Rasem Shamiya, a counselor who works for the U.N. school system, said many of the children show signs of trauma, including trouble paying attention, aggressive behavior or avoiding contact with others. "They are very stressed," he said. "Since these children were born, they have never known peace."
Sada Attar, 43, said she worries her children and others in that generation will come to see violence as normal.
"These disturbed children are not going to be good for Israel's long term interests," she said. "The child will naturally rise up and confront the Zionist enemy with the stone, with fire, with everything in their power."
Shortly after she spoke, the children got a brief break from the chaos. Volunteers showed up in the school courtyard, carrying crayons, paper, hula hoops and soccer balls. Ahmed and other boys started kicking a ball around and he quickly became engrossed in the game.
Israeli children, especially in the areas close to Gaza, have also been affected. Since 2000, Gaza militants have fired thousands of rockets at Israeli communities. Psychologists have found high rates of anxiety and bed-wetting among children in the border town of Sderot.
During the current bout, Israeli mothers were seen shielding their children with their bodies as sirens warned of incoming rockets. Other footage showed children weeping and cowering in fear as explosions were heard near their homes.
Several Israeli children were hurt by rockets, including 11- and 12-year-old sisters playing outside and a 16-year-old boy who was seriously hurt by shrapnel as he returned from a barber.
In Gaza, about one-fourth of the over 190 Palestinians killed in the past week were children, according to U.N. figures.
The children's fears are very real and parents in Gaza are increasingly unable to reassure them, said Pierre Krahenbuhl, who heads the U.N. agency that provides aid to Palestinian refugees.
"Today, we met with families who shared with us that they have simply no more answers to give when the children ask them why are the homes shaking, why is there so much destruction," he said.
On Tuesday, some of the displaced, including Mariam, Sada and their children, left the school and returned home, apparently encouraged by Egypt's call for a cease-fire that was to take effect later in the day.
However, the hoped-for lull only lasted a few hours. By Tuesday afternoon, Gaza militants had fired about three dozen rockets at Israel and Israel resumed air strikes on targets in Gaza.
Some members of the Attar clan chose to remain at the school despite faint hopes for a cease-fire. "I want to go home, but I am still afraid," said 42-year-old Mohammed Attar, a relative of the sisters.
Source : Sapa-AP /gq
Date : 15 Jul 2014 15:14
The children of the Attar clan have lived through three wars in just over five years, each time fleeing their homes as Israel bombarded their neighborhood in the Palestinian Gaza Strip.
Their psychological scars show. Some act out, others cling to their mothers or withdraw, like 12-year-old Ahmed who sat by himself Monday on a bench in the courtyard of a U.N. school where his family once again sought shelter.
"They bombed very close to my house," said the boy, looking down and avoiding eye contact. "I'm scared."
Experts said it will be increasingly difficult to heal such victims of repeated trauma.
"For the majority of the children (in Gaza), it is the third time around," said Bruce Grant, the chief of child protection for the Palestinian territories in the United Nation's children's agency, UNICEF. "It reduces their ability to be resilient and to bounce back. Some will not find their way back to a sense of normalcy. Fear will become their new norm."
The Attar clan lives in Atatra, a neighborhood in northeastern Gaza, just a few hundred meters from Israel. Gaza militants often launch rockets at Israel from border areas, turning them into flashpoints and frequent targets of Israeli strikes.
Residents of Atatra fled their homes in Israel's three-week military offensive in the winter of 2008-2009, during a week of cross-border fighting in November 2012 and again over the weekend.
After Israeli aircraft dropped leaflets over Atatra on Saturday warning residents to leave, sisters Mariam and Sada Attar bundled a few belongings into plastic bags and rushed out of their homes. They had 10 children in tow, as well as Mariam's husband Omar, who she said suffers from stress-induced psychological disorders and can no longer function normally.
The families sought shelter in the same U.N. school where they stayed during the previous two rounds of fighting. In all, 20 U.N. schools took in more than 17,000 displaced Gazans, many of them children, after Saturday's warnings by Israel that civilians must clear out of northern Gaza.
Members of the Attar clan took over part of the second floor, with more than 40 people sleeping in each classroom. Mariam, Sada, Omar and the children were squeezed into one half of a room, their space demarcated by benches. Another family from the clan stayed in the other half of the room. A blanket draped across an open doorway offered the only measure of privacy.
In the classroom, the scene was chaotic, with children pushing and shoving each other and mothers yelling at them to behave. There was nothing to do for children or grown-ups, except to wait.
Mariam Attar, 35, said they spent the night on the hard floor for lack of mattresses.
She sat on the floor, her back leaning against a wall, and held her youngest, 16-month-old Mahmoud. She said her older children have become clingy, some asking that she accompany them to the communal toilet.
Recalling the latest bombings, she said: "We felt the house was going to fall on top of us and so the children started to scream. I was screaming and my husband was screaming."
Her 14-year-old son Mohammed said the family cowered on the ground in the living room during the bombing to avoid being hit by shrapnel. He said the time passed slowly because they had no electricity or TV.
Mohammed and Ahmed, who is from another branch of the clan, said they and other children often play "Arabs and Jews," fighting each other with toy guns or wooden sticks as make-believe weapons. Arabs always win, the boys said.
Rasem Shamiya, a counselor who works for the U.N. school system, said many of the children show signs of trauma, including trouble paying attention, aggressive behavior or avoiding contact with others. "They are very stressed," he said. "Since these children were born, they have never known peace."
Sada Attar, 43, said she worries her children and others in that generation will come to see violence as normal.
"These disturbed children are not going to be good for Israel's long term interests," she said. "The child will naturally rise up and confront the Zionist enemy with the stone, with fire, with everything in their power."
Shortly after she spoke, the children got a brief break from the chaos. Volunteers showed up in the school courtyard, carrying crayons, paper, hula hoops and soccer balls. Ahmed and other boys started kicking a ball around and he quickly became engrossed in the game.
Israeli children, especially in the areas close to Gaza, have also been affected. Since 2000, Gaza militants have fired thousands of rockets at Israeli communities. Psychologists have found high rates of anxiety and bed-wetting among children in the border town of Sderot.
During the current bout, Israeli mothers were seen shielding their children with their bodies as sirens warned of incoming rockets. Other footage showed children weeping and cowering in fear as explosions were heard near their homes.
Several Israeli children were hurt by rockets, including 11- and 12-year-old sisters playing outside and a 16-year-old boy who was seriously hurt by shrapnel as he returned from a barber.
In Gaza, about one-fourth of the over 190 Palestinians killed in the past week were children, according to U.N. figures.
The children's fears are very real and parents in Gaza are increasingly unable to reassure them, said Pierre Krahenbuhl, who heads the U.N. agency that provides aid to Palestinian refugees.
"Today, we met with families who shared with us that they have simply no more answers to give when the children ask them why are the homes shaking, why is there so much destruction," he said.
On Tuesday, some of the displaced, including Mariam, Sada and their children, left the school and returned home, apparently encouraged by Egypt's call for a cease-fire that was to take effect later in the day.
However, the hoped-for lull only lasted a few hours. By Tuesday afternoon, Gaza militants had fired about three dozen rockets at Israel and Israel resumed air strikes on targets in Gaza.
Some members of the Attar clan chose to remain at the school despite faint hopes for a cease-fire. "I want to go home, but I am still afraid," said 42-year-old Mohammed Attar, a relative of the sisters.
Source : Sapa-AP /gq
Date : 15 Jul 2014 15:14
OrbitalDawn
Ulysses Everett McGill
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The people who live there now did not come from Europe. They were born there.
And if they formed their own State instead of choosing war they wouldn't have had to 'embrace' anyone, they would have had their own country. They chose war and lost.
That's good. Have you seen how Arabs treats foreign, lower class workers like Indians and Filipinos? They're essentially slaves.
Those Jews live in Israel now, mostly.
falcon786 said:
The Ottoman Empire's implosion brought on that separation more than anything. There was an immediate and very real power vacuum.
It wasn't particularly peaceful at that stage, anyway. There was a rising tide of Arab Nationalism and Jewish Nationalism in the area, with both groups intent on creating their own nations. The partition plan was a pragmatic approach to try and accommodate both groups instead of trying to shove a lid on a boiling cauldron.
The indigenous Jews had help from abroad with the Zionist movement actively supporting the creation of the Israeli State while the Palestinians were mostly used as pawns for the Arab League's political agendas. If they actually helped the Palestinians to build a State you'd have had an independent Palestine from 1948 instead of where we are now.
falcon786 said:
Heard of ISIS? And the expulsion of almost a million Jews from Arab countries?
And they're not kicking the indigenous people out, that's why a fifth of Israel's population are Arabs. And many of the Jews that live there trace their lineage back centuries. They're also indigenous.
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Nerfherder
Honorary Master
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What do you consider modern times ?
Anyway... yes.
Iraq and Iran both have indigenous populations that were targeted by Islamic rulers.
Thats just post WW2
Then more recently Syria, Sudan, Somalia... getting close to home now.
falcon786
Honorary Master
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If this is true(citation needed before we can assume) it still doesn't justify dividing Palestine where Jews were living peacefully,So a case of the Arabs kicked us out of Syria or wherever so now lets go cause ***** with the Palestinians loosing their land because well they are all Arab so screw them.Lets ignore the fact that the Palestinians have been living with us peacefully for centuries.
falcon786
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Israel has 80% of the land so of course they do.Had a single secular state called Palestine been formed they would have still been Palestinians and living in Palestine.
Turns out that's just what they did after all.Cauldron has been boiling ever since.
How many indigenous Jews were there at the time and how many indigenous Non Jews?How much land was owned by each?
Isis wants to create a Caliphate,Jews were living peacefully under the caliphate in the area according your own statement just a few posts earlier.
So are they given equal rights in every respect like citizens should be given?
I'm certainly not a fan of Saddam or Iran......but yes that's all said and done already no point making a fuss about it now its not current.Palestines issue is current.
I'm openly spoken out against Assad on the forum also,I hope they hang him!The ethnic cleansing etc in Sudan and Somalia was shocking indeed but both situations seems to have settled a bit and we don't get much news out of there anyway.
Anyway.... yes,I do condemn any such actions regardless of race or religion.So irrelevant then after all to this thread or the topic.
Grant
Honorary Master
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sorry - been out for a while.
land grabbing is a complex one.
from what i understand (of land grabs) when israel was originally attacked by various states immediately after declaring independence - israel is entitled to captured land - call it the spoils of war.
as for anything taken in recent times (post the war i refer to above) should be returned.
in the event of the war above, israel was attacked & successfully defended herself & is entitled to the "spoils of war" as a result of the attack.
subsequent to that, any further expansion, in my opinion, was / is illegal & unwarranted.
that land needs to be returned to the original inhabitants (in it's current state - not destroyed & left uninhabitable).
**
apologies - bit of a rushed response without very much thought - top of the head thoughts (busy with a whole lot of stuff right now - will give more thought to my response later)
**edit
i have actually been at a jewish neighbor helping him with his mac
while there i asked him to open an email i sent him last night.
under my mail was another with the heading "zionist bla bla bla . . ." i obviously did not read the mail, just saw the subject line.
asked him what his thoughts were on the current issue.
he (and apparently most of cape town's jewish community in my area) are very much opposed to "zionism" and continued israeli expansion - in any name.
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