Cool Ideas Fibre ISP – Feedback Thread 4

TheRoDent

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If you go the VPN route it essentially locks out console gamers because they can't set up a VPN on the console (meaning they would need to do it at router level aka complicated and that's if the router supports it ).
Yeah true, kinda what @Tinuva was aiming for... We create "virtual" networks and have different routing characteristics based on the client's demands.

I'd love to do it, but frankly would not be worth the commercial effort. It's a huge task.
 

TheRoDent

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Yeah mpls and vrfs are amazing. But few if any home customer isp network will implement it.

It would work for the console players. That said, I unstated limitations. Easier to disable the peering.
Question would be, what is the economic benefit ?

1. Offering a customer the lowest latency to anywhere in the world, and let the applications sort it out ? -- This is my personal MY PREFERENCE. Gamers should be allowed to connect to a region/server of their choice. No auto stuff.

2. Engineering a network, that sorts out applications..... ^h^h^h^h (games, mostly)

3. Provide a free VPN service.

4. Quantum entagled Ethernet with zero latency. (no, it's not a thing. yet)

We've been through several iterations of low-latency, but it seems like the only people that care, is gamers.
So, a free VPN for CISP customers to optimize a path, seems like the best solution (aside from console gamers).
 
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Tinuva

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Question would be, what is the economic benefit ?

Offering a customer the lowest latency to anywhere in the world, and let the applications sort it out ?

Or engineering a network, that sorts out applications..... ^h^h^h^h (games, mostly)

Or provide a free VPN service.
Economicly you won't gain much. The only thing you could possibly gain from the idea is pleasing all customers and some flex that you doing something none of the other isps do.
 

CrypticZA

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People complain that VOX and others have better pings to Bahrain than us, which basically just means flinging packets at AWS.

As for the numbers, I'm not sure, but yes, I'm considering spinning up VPN servers in each AWS region, and having clients connect directly there to get the best path.

Doesn't help for the average XBOX/PS5 user though...
Vox have SACS and Bahrain which both lets be real are trash servers gaming in these regions are useless, when CISP had SACS i would wait 15 minutes for a game on Brazil so i never used it, then Blizzard dropped a patch and suddenly all the capacity would be consumed by Call of Duty, so how much does your average person use these regions? Probably next to nothing unless its going to US?

WebSquad has SAFE & Bahrain they getting 180ms to Hong Kong, 200ms to Tokyo and 210ms to Sydney - this is cool honestly it is but i question their stability to the likes of EU - reason i wouldn't go that route. How much traffic other than gaming would be coming from the likes of Australia and Asia probably minimal to average?

But where do we consume our most traffic from? Other than local? EU and America i would imagine, not Brazil or Bahrain. So would it make sense to tank your EU AWS pings to cater for a small dead region like Bahrain?

I personally play on Bahrain from time to time i just put on Warp VPN from Cloudflare and it works, and not to mention the AWS peer for Bahrain is so often disabled because a flap happened on the route and they switched cables/routes. I have a friend who asks about Bahrain every now and then and whenever i check the route is disabled and 5 days later its back up. You can get Bahrain peer on any VPN with SA server basically but the only way to get better ping to EU is via connecting to London and honestly in my testing with multiple VPN's they are too unstable.

I understand where you coming from fully i do, i was involved in this conversation with Paul initially about this, but have a look around you will find more than a few posts that show one huge thing CISP has going for them is their low latency to EU.
 

TheRoDent

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Vox have SACS and Bahrain which both lets be real are trash servers gaming in these regions are useless
So, is our network better, or worse, because we don't use SACS and Direct AWS routes?

We disabled those routes because they are "trash" servers, and apparently game client selected those "trash" servers because of ping....
 

TheRoDent

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WebSquad has SAFE & Bahrain they getting 180ms to Hong Kong, 200ms to Tokyo and 210ms to Sydney
Other than Sidney, are Hong Kong and Tokyo servers not also "trash" because of time zone differences and language barriers?

What makes a server "trash" ?
 

CrypticZA

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So, is our network better, or worse, because we don't use SACS and Direct AWS routes?

We disabled those routes because they are "trash" servers, and apparently game client selected those "trash" servers because of ping....
I am not sure if we on the same page or not but...

Better AWS EU ping > better ping to SACS/Bahrain

I am in favour of how things were yesterday. I consume the most content both gaming and none gaming from local & EU i consume nothing from SACS/Bahrain.

I was happy to let SACS go.
 

TheRoDent

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But where do we consume our most traffic from? Other than local? EU and America i would imagine, not Brazil or Bahrain. So would it make sense to tank your EU AWS pings to cater for a small dead region like Bahrain?
For all traffic other than gaming traffic, it's EU, and USA.
 

CrypticZA

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Other than Sidney, are Hong Kong and Tokyo servers not also "trash" because of time zone differences and language barriers?
No a server in my words are "trash" if the population playing on them is low.

US to Asia is give or take 100ms same as EU, so a lot of gamers play on the Asian servers and you have the whole of Aus + NZ playing on Sydney servers. Asia also has the biggest gaming population in the world and most competitive. The best Overwatch games are played on Asia.

So take Brazil, who will be playing on Brazil? Brazilians and South Americans, however South America is a lot of low income countries so the extreme gamers will choose to play on US servers with the likes of an 80 to 100ms ping vs local. The same applies for Bahrain i know a few people living in UAE they all play EU because the servers are more populated, you find games fast you don't need to wait for the 10 people on the server to finish their game to find a game.
 

TheRoDent

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So would it make sense to tank your EU AWS pings to cater for a small dead region like Bahrain?
And this is the problem with AWS peering in South Africa. Either we route/accept all traffic from them in South Africa, (we can filter a bit), and use whatever they use (tanking because of their crappy local upstreams), or we route things ourselves where we have full control.

But then Bahrain pings go from UK to Bahrain....

It's kind of an "in" or "out" situation with trusting AWS to route their traffic lowest latency. We've been juggling with filtering things from their various regions or not, but at the end of the day we either trust them to do the best routing they can, or we don't.

The recent change we made was, OK, it's an AWS IP, so they must deal with it.

Before the change we said, "we have the better path. except maybe for Bahrain"
 

CrypticZA

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And this is the problem with AWS peering in South Africa. Either we route/accept all traffic from them in South Africa, (we can filter a bit), and use whatever they use (tanking because of their crappy local upstreams), or we route things ourselves where we have full control.

But then Bahrain pings go from UK to Bahrain....
100% Agree with you AWS should do better and they can honestly do things 1000% better, same with Google they send us the long route thats why i get 180+ ping to Belgium vs the 150 i could get if i went the right route.

Some interesting steam stats on the following link for a popular game to date CSGO:


CS is a big game in Brazil so they a bit of an anomaly here.
 

Jason-ZA

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Am I correct in saying that its only the JHB guys that benefit from low ping to Bahrain? And the CPT ppl will get the same as London pings?

Won't it be possible to only announce the JHB IP blocks to AWS in SA so they can benefit while the CPT IP ranges are picked up in London via CISP transit?
 

CrypticZA

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Am I correct in saying that its only the JHB guys that benefit from low ping to Bahrain? And the CPT ppl will get the same as London pings?

Won't it be possible to only announce the JHB IP blocks to AWS in SA so they can benefit while the CPT IP ranges are picked up in London via CISP transit?
Correct i get 150ms to Bahrain vs 145 to London.

But my Frankfurt goes from 155 to 200. So might as well take an extra 15ms and go to New York
 

TheRoDent

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Economicly you won't gain much. The only thing you could possibly gain from the idea is pleasing all customers and some flex that you doing something none of the other isps do.
Wish I could beat physics....
 

TheRoDent

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Am I correct in saying that its only the JHB guys that benefit from low ping to Bahrain? And the CPT ppl will get the same as London pings?

Won't it be possible to only announce the JHB IP blocks to AWS in SA so they can benefit while the CPT IP ranges are picked up in London via CISP transit?
AWS uses the same cables we do, and in some cases, even worse routes.... It's not like they magically have better routes than we do, which is why we de-peered them for a while in South Africa. It was too unstable, and we could provide a better route ourselves via the UK and WACS.
 

Jason-ZA

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AWS uses the same cables we do, and in some cases, even worse routes.... It's not like they magically have better routes than we do, which is why we de-peered them for a while in South Africa. It was too unstable, and we could provide a better route ourselves via the UK and WACS.

Yep, I personally proffered it the way it was before the change was made today, where you guys used your own route which was more stable, the one thing I noticed was that Twitch vods worked a lot better when using your guys own route (its served via CloudFront).

Those that want low ping to Bahrain can simply spin up CloudFlare warp for free, but I do understand that console players cant do this :(
 

TheRoDent

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Yep, I personally proffered it the way it was before the change was made today, where you guys used your own route which was more stable, the one thing I noticed was that Twitch vods worked a lot better when using your guys own route (its served via CloudFront).

Those that want low ping to Bahrain can simply spin up CloudFlare warp for free, but I do understand that console players cant do this :(
Had feeback from XBOXY people that they're loving the new Bahrain pings...
 

MattRoy

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Yep, I personally proffered it the way it was before the change was made today, where you guys used your own route which was more stable, the one thing I noticed was that Twitch vods worked a lot better when using your guys own route (its served via CloudFront).

Those that want low ping to Bahrain can simply spin up CloudFlare warp for free, but I do understand that console players cant do this :(
Time for them to join pcmasterrace.
 
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