Court dismisses AfriForum application to have 'Kill the Boer' declared hate speech

Howdy

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Ok, so you haven't invented anything after all. Thanks for clearing that up.
Who knows, did I reply in the personal or collective sense? All I did was point out semantics. Perhaps a Carl would have been a better choice.

Yet the fact that you felt compelled to respond as you did, says it all. Thanks for clearing that up for us as well.
 

Gyre

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You might be surprised, Carl. I'm not an attention seeking whore like some folks here.

But you are, or why respond to me and not the other people generalizing? Of course my generalizations bother you, why else would you zero in on them and not the others?

Obviously some truths make people rather uncomfortable, enough to inject themselves into conversation.
 

vigras rojara

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Who knows, did I reply in the personal or collective sense? All I did was point out semantics. Perhaps a Carl would have been a better choice.

Yet the fact that you felt compelled to respond as you did, says it all. Thanks for clearing that up for us as well.
If you're speaking in the collective sense then you should really clarify who "we" actually is.

But I fear you are taking this whole conversation a bit too seriously...
 

Howdy

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If you're speaking in the collective sense then you should really clarify who "we" actually is.

But I fear you are taking this whole conversation a bit too seriously...
Context and dinosaurs, yet you simply had to.

Siri: Why is common understanding on mybb an oxymoron?

Seriously?
Siri: What is seriously?
 

Howdy

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But you are, or why respond to me and not the other people generalizing? Of course my generalizations bother you, why else would you zero in on them and not the others?

Obviously some truths make people rather uncomfortable, enough to inject themselves into conversation.
Siri: Define uncomfortable in this context.

Irritated with perpetual dishonest trolling
 

vigras rojara

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Context and dinosaurs, yet you simply had to.

Siri: Why is common understanding on mybb an oxymoron?

Seriously?
Siri: What is seriously?
VR: Who was Howdy referring to when he said "we" invented things?

Siri: Well, I've searched a lot and the only thing I can find that was invented by My Broederbonders is a supposed genocide.
 
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Oldfut

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I find the endorsement of what seems pretty obviously race based hate speech by the SA judiciary very worrying. I am even surprised (silly me) that it had to be brought before the courts by an external organisation and not the SAHRC or SAPS. I can't think of any other (first world, civilised etc?) country that would approve of "kill the Boer, kill the farmer", let alone "slitting the throat of whiteness" but am open to being corrected.

Wearing a black (well, worst case or negative) hat I would say SA is heading for violent turmoil with whites potentially being targeted for dispossession and violence but with this spilling over into huge short to medium term negatives for all of SA (as with Zim). Very few in national government, the judiciary etc are promoting unity let alone true non racial equality, rather the opposite as we see with this case. The fundamentals of high unemployment, a struggling economy (thanks ANC Eskom), key sectors crippled by ANC policy uncertainty (mining, agriculture and tourism), rising inflation and government borrowing are all negative factors (as they were in Zim around 2000). No real signs of short term improvement.

Plan accordingly methinks.
 

PrimeSteak

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Disappointing outcome. The damned song is plain hate speech. (Irony is how the EFF calls AfriForum the racists in this case, yet they unironically sing a song that calls for the killing of whites...)
I don't really root for AfriForum, but for this case, I will. I hope they win the appeal.
 

Gyre

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Disappointing outcome. The damned song is plain hate speech. (Irony is how the EFF calls AfriForum the racists in this case, yet they unironically sing a song that calls for the killing of whites...)
I don't really root for AfriForum, but for this case, I will. I hope they win the appeal.

Did you read the case outcome? What we are debating here and what afriforum presented are two different things, which is why there is a lot of confusion in this thread.

Unless I am mistaken?
 

PrimeSteak

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Did you read the case outcome? What we are debating here and what afriforum presented are two different things, which is why there is a lot of confusion in this thread.

Unless I am mistaken?
No, I didn't. But I got the gist of what happened.

AfriForum lost the case, EFF is walking on sunshine. AfriForum will appeal.

And I stand by what I said, the song is hate speech through and through, hence why I said it's disappointing that AfriForum lost.
 

Gyre

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No, I didn't. But I got the gist of what happened.

AfriForum lost the case, EFF is walking on sunshine. AfriForum will appeal.

And I stand by what I said, the song is hate speech through and through, hence why I said it's disappointing that AfriForum lost.

Judge Molahlehi was giving judgment in a matter brought by Afriforum against the EFF and its leader Julius Malema. It comes after supporters of the EFF chanted the slogan outside the Magistrate’s Court in Senekal in October 2020 where those accused of murdering farm manager Brendin Horner were appearing.
judge-rules-kill-boer---kill-farmer-not-hate-speech


In 2011, Malema was found guilty of “hate speech” by Johannesburg High Court Judge Colin Lamont (sitting as an Equality Court) who ruled that “the morality of society dictates” that he and others should not use the words, nor sing the song.

Malema appealed to the Supreme Court of Appeal, but the matter was withdrawn after the parties agreed to mediate.

Read the judgment
However, Afriforum, in the case before Judge Molahlehi argued that Malema was still duty bound not to sing the song and to discourage his supporters from doing so because it incited racial hatred, in particular against farmers, who were under siege in constant farm attacks.

Afriforum wanted Judge Molahlehi to issue another interdict against Malema and the party, order the EFF to apologise, pay R50,000 to an appropriate organisation and refer the matter to the National Director of Public Prosecutions to investigate whether Malema, or other office bearers, should be criminally charged.

But Judge Molahlehi dismissed the application and ordered Afriforum to pay the EFF’s costs.

The judge said none of Afriforum’s witnesses, including Ernst Roets, its head of policy and action, had laid a proper basis for their complaints. None were “experts” and in the case of Roets, he was “not neutral or independent”.

Two survivors of farm attacks who gave evidence on behalf of Afriforum, had also provided no link to the singing of the song and what happened to them. One had been attacked in 2008. The EFF was only formed in 2013. “In this context, the question is how the singing of the song (by the EFF), could have triggered the attack,” the judge said.
 

Moosedrool

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If they want to sing it let them sing it.

No reason to hide the racism, we all want to see.
 
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Mista_Mobsta

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No, I didn't. But I got the gist of what happened.

AfriForum lost the case, EFF is walking on sunshine. AfriForum will appeal.

And I stand by what I said, the song is hate speech through and through, hence why I said it's disappointing that AfriForum lost.
"Expression will constitute hate speech when it seeks to violate rights of another person or group of persons based on group identity"

You can't really fault the judge in this case - Afriforum didn't have independent expert witnesses and the lay witnesses were too vague to make a convincing argument. Due to Afriforum sh*tting the bed with their witnesses, the court had to rely on the literal vs figurative nature of how the song is interpreted and whether a 'reasonable person' would interpret the contents of the song as Literal or Figurative.

The issue of HOW the Equality Act is interpreted, fair vs unfair discrimination, is also raised. There was also the issue of how section 10(1) of the Equality Act was declared unconstitutional and invalid by the CC subject to amendment by parliament:
'Subject to the proviso in section 12, no person may publish, propagate, advocate or communicate words that are based on one or more of the prohibited grounds, against any person, that could reasonably be construed to demonstrate a clear intention to be harmful or to incite harm and to promote or propagate hatred' -> this removed the 'to be hurtful' test of the freedom of expression. This turned out to be an important factor in determining whether the song is causing HARM or HURT.

The court essentially found that, given the atrocities of what happened to the marginalised in the past: 'Difficult as it may be to uphold, the society has a duty in terms of his principle to allow and be tolerant of both popular and unpopular views of its members' EFF vs SANEF case was also brought up where the CC stated: "...even if the prohibited utterances in question could qualify as hate speech on its terms but fail to incite, or reasonably construed as inciting harm, no liability could arise in respect of section 10 of the Equality Act".

Basically, the court found that Afriforum only had a case if the average person would interpret the song LITERALLY as it is AND be called to incite HARM - not hurt.
 
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