Court reserves judgement in climate activists' case against 3,000MW gas power plant

[HartsockZA]

Ah God the fcking hippies are back.... look I understand nuclear but gas power is 2nd to that of nuclear.....

 

[RVQ]

Karpowerships are gas engines.

Yup, but a very bad deal

 

[Spizz]

Yup, but a very bad deal

For many reasons, perhaps yes. But financially as an IPP they are delivering what they were asked to deliver in a price per kWh for the next 20 years. And in that respect their prices were cheaper or pretty similar to everyone else’s bidding in the programme.

I haven’t seen the same talk about price per kWh for the Scatec solar farm for example and the profits from that place are going to Norway for the next 20 years.

It’s what IPPs do. They give you power, we pay them for it.

 

[RVQ]

For many reasons, perhaps yes. But financially as an IPP they are delivering what they were asked to deliver in a price per kWh for the next 20 years. And in that respect their prices were cheaper or pretty similar to everyone else’s bidding in the programme.

I haven’t seen the same talk about price per kWh for the Scatec solar farm for example and the profits from that place are going to Norway for the next 20 years.

It’s what IPPs do. They give you power, we pay them for it.

The reality is other IPPs have not had so much concerns with their projects.

Maybe I bought into the public narrative but everything from successful court challenges to the way they originally acquired certain government approvals, along with a record of involvement in international corruption does not sit well with me. Karpowership have done nothing to ease the concerns of the South African citizen.

If they can successfully, legally and with open book aquire the required approvals and have Eskom be 100% confident then I'd happily support them.

.

 

[konfab]

Even if you are a retarded environmentalist and believe all the climate change nonsense, the fact is that natural gas plant emits less than half the CO2 per kwh than Eskom's 40 year old coal power stations (and this is being very conservative in terms of estimation, Eskom's plants are notorious for being major pollutants) . If SA switched entirely over to natural gas fracked from the Karoo and elsewhere, we would be able to half the country's CO2 emissions from energy. That gives the economy time to grow whilst renewable energy projects come online to fill the gap until the country can switch over to nuclear power entirely.

A sane environmentally friendly plan to fix the energy shortage is this:
1) Switch from coal to natural gas immediately for base load and retire all coal power stations -> 50% + reduction in CO2 without further destroying economy. Natural gas stations should be able to handle base load and peaking load by design.
2) Start building nuclear power stations.
3) While nuclear power stations are being built, start building renewable energy plants. As renewable energy projects come online, switch natural gas projects over to peaking load.
4) Once nuclear power stations come online, you can start phasing out natural gas.

 

[Oldfut]

I’m not sure what you are saying “no” to as I’ve covered a couple of points. But sorry it’s late and I’m also not reading all that

Suffice to say the article you link to is talking about turbines which I’ve already said are inefficient. When I talk about gas I’m talking about engines. Engines which can run at 10% or 100% as required. Like the Karpowerships.

I'm not sure "engines" ( I assume you mean spark ignition, gas powered, piston engines) can run as low as 10%, efficiently anyway. Maybe 50% (GE Jenbacher). Snag with gas engines is reducing power but at constant rpm to maintain the generation frequency. The attraction of gas from a pipeline (as I understand it) is that start up time (engine or turbine) is relatively quick and only limited storage is needed. Gas engines producing more than 10MW are limited and turbines start to be come efficient after this. Could have changed though.

 

[Spizz]

The reality is other IPPs have not had so much concerns with their projects.

Maybe I bought into the public narrative but everything from successful court challenges to the way they originally acquired certain government approvals, along with a record of involvement in international corruption does not sit well with me. Karpowership have done nothing to ease the concerns of the South African citizen.

If they can successfully, legally and with open book aquire the required approvals and have Eskom be 100% confident then I'd happily support them.

.

And I agree with you. It is a terrible solution to our needs for the reasons you mention and more. Price wise though, it is consistent with the others awarded through the RMIPPPP.

 

[Spizz]

I'm not sure "engines" ( I assume you mean spark ignition, gas powered, piston engines) can run as low as 10%, efficiently anyway. Maybe 50% (GE Jenbacher). Snag with gas engines is reducing power but at constant rpm to maintain the generation frequency. The attraction of gas from a pipeline (as I understand it) is that start up time (engine or turbine) is relatively quick and only limited storage is needed. Gas engines producing more than 10MW are limited and turbines start to be come efficient after this. Could have changed though.

A 100MW engine plant would typically be 5 to 10 separate engines producing 10 -20 MW each.

Modern engines are online in seconds so you can fluctuate the loads to meet demand by running only one, two or however many you like at a time. Software will do this automatically.

An added benefit is maintenance can be regular and will not take the whole plant out of operation. Just one engine at a time.

 

[MikeaMatrix]

Hippies man.

 

[konfab]

However, she doesn’t believe it’s appropriate to make load-shedding the focus of the court hearing.

She said the hearing is about the need and desirability for such a gas-to-power plant in this day and age while the country is basically on a decarbonisation path.

How can you not talk about an energy shortage when talking about the "need" for a gas power station?

 

[kolaval]

So what happened to the 12Bill germany gave us to get rid of coal?

 

[garyc]

Have any of the environmental impact assessments taken into account the reduction in emissions from generators running during load shedding? The main concern would probably be the large diesel powered units used extensively through industry. In this case almost anything would be less polluting as a stopgap until we transition over to renewables.

 

[sl0m0_za]

The world needs more carbon. If the CO2 levels drop below 170ppm, all plant life dies. It is currently around 470ppm thanks to us. It has been at over 2000ppm with no disaster. There is historically very little cerrelation between CO2 levels and Temperature

 

[RVQ]

So what happened to the 12Bill germany gave us to get rid of coal?

I'm pretty that's all still talk at the moment...

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Experience from south Australia has proven over the last 10 years that battery packs are also effective.

And their running costs are not linked to a highly manipulated oil and gas market.

That big battery? It caught fire and took three days just to get the fire under control. Lithium fires are extremely difficult to extinguish.



A large blaze at Victoria’s “big battery” project has been brought under control by firefighters after burning for more than three days, allowing investigators to begin examining the site.

A Tesla battery bank caught fire while it was being set up in Moorabool on Friday morning, and then spread to a second battery.

The fire burned throughout the weekend and into a fourth day, before it was declared under control just after 3pm on Monday.

Tesla big battery fire in Victoria under control after burning more than three days

Firefighters say blaze that began during testing on Friday has been particularly challenging as it is the first mega pack fire in the world

www.theguardian.com

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Turbines cannot adapt dynamically to the demand. They run at 100% all the time whereas gas engines can increase or decrease the load instantly which is important when we consider renewables and their inconsistent nature.

But Karpowerships are like any other IPP and they gave a price per kWh over a 20 year period as per the governments requirements. And as much as I think it’s a terrible solution for any number of reasons, their prices are pretty low compared to the other solutions awarded contracts in the emergency power programme.

The Karpowerships generate electricity using MAN 51/60 Diesel Engines which can also be run on gas. The "gas engine" claim is thus misleading and the turbo refers to the turbo chargers on the engines:

The Turkish energy company Karpowership has placed an order for a total of 38 MAN 51/60 engines, 18 of which will be multi-fuel engines that can be run on gas or liquid fuel.

Karpowership Adds MAN Diesel & Turbo Drivers

www.dieselgasturbine.com

Docked in a harbour these are going to be very noisy with sound transmitted for a long distance in the water for 20 years. So how can the temporary seismic surveys off Port St Johns be condemned and not these?

If gas turbines are to be used the noise generated will be the equivalent of several airliners taking off simultaneously all the time the turbines are running. Gas turbines are what hang under airliners' wings.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

I’m not sure what you are saying “no” to as I’ve covered a couple of points. But sorry it’s late and I’m also not reading all that

Suffice to say the article you link to is talking about turbines which I’ve already said are inefficient. When I talk about gas I’m talking about engines. Engines which can run at 10% or 100% as required. Like the Karpowerships.

Gas turbines are the same thing that hang under airliner wings. They adapt quickly to load changes and can burn any fuel that burns from shaving cream to diesel to jet fuel. The fuel used is determined by altitude. The reason Jet fuel is used at high altitudes and diesel at ground level is due to efficiency. Steam turbines are used in coal power stations and take a while to adapt to load changes due to boiler pressure and fuel feed adaptions.

No diesel engine, which the Karpowerships use, running on diesel or gas can run at 10% for long. Extreme carbon buildup occurs in the engine. 100% is also only achievable for short periods and 110% overload is tested for acceptance tests.

A diesel generating plant running multiple engines seeks to achieve a load of between 80 - 90% on the engines in use. The generating plants I ran stopped one of several engines when the load reduced to 60% on all engines in use. When the load increased to around 90% on all engines in use, another was started and brought on line.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

If SA switched entirely over to natural gas fracked from the Karoo

You're going to pay out all the farmers and supply the towns with many tanker trucks daily for those who rely on boreholes for water in the Karoo? There is no surface water and poisoning the aquifers will turn the Karoo into what it was before borehole technology got there - An uninhabited wasteland.

 

[wingnut771]

That big battery? It caught fire and took three days just to get the fire under control. Lithium fires are extremely difficult to extinguish.

View attachment 1359521

A large blaze at Victoria’s “big battery” project has been brought under control by firefighters after burning for more than three days, allowing investigators to begin examining the site.

A Tesla battery bank caught fire while it was being set up in Moorabool on Friday morning, and then spread to a second battery.

The fire burned throughout the weekend and into a fourth day, before it was declared under control just after 3pm on Monday.

Tesla big battery fire in Victoria under control after burning more than three days

Firefighters say blaze that began during testing on Friday has been particularly challenging as it is the first mega pack fire in the world

www.theguardian.com

Not LiFePO4.

 

[wingnut771]

You're going to pay out all the farmers and supply the towns with many tanker trucks daily for those who rely on boreholes for water in the Karoo? There is no surface water and poisoning the aquifers will turn the Karoo into what it was before borehole technology got there - An uninhabited wasteland.

fracking should frack off.