Court reserves judgement in climate activists' case against 3,000MW gas power plant

[Cosmik Debris]

They are gas engines in the plants that I have referenced and that I was talking about here. But all fuels in these type of reciprocating engines of dual fuel variety (HFO/LFO) would be stored in tanks at temperature. They wouldn’t be used for quick start projects such as these though.

So the reciprocating engines are started on diesel and switched over to gas? Why would the tanks need to be kept at temperature? That's a lot of energy expenditure when the fuel pipes can be heated by exhaust gas unless you're talking about keeping the diesel from gelling due to freezing temperatures by heating it to about -10 deg C. Diesel gels at -12 deg C.

I still cannot see a 9.8MW diesel engine going from cold start including preparations to full load on line in 2 minutes. Even with sump heaters for the oil keeping it warm.

 

[Spizz]

So the reciprocating engines are started on diesel and switched over to gas?

No, sorry, I'm probably not explaining so well, but the engines in the plants we were discussing are gas only. No diesel involved.

Why would the tanks need to be kept at temperature? That's a lot of energy expenditure when the fuel pipes can be heated by exhaust gas unless you're talking about keeping the diesel from gelling due to freezing temperatures by heating it to about -10 deg C. Diesel gels at -12 deg C.

A typical engine for many markets is dual fuel enabled which is gas and oil. But diesel is not normally used as it is expensive so the preferred oil is HFO. These engines would be generating power 24/7 and not used as a quick start solution which we discussing earlier.

I still cannot see a 9.8MW diesel engine going from cold start including preparations to full load on line in 2 minutes. Even with sump heaters for the oil keeping it warm.

Sure, that wouldn't happen, the 2 minutes solution was gas. Engines using any type of oil are generally used for base load in Africa/Asia/South America.

 

[Johnatan56]

Lol, desperate or what? I'm not interested in your semantics.

Jog on fella.

That was the entire point, it's not a within a few seconds call up, it's not a within two minutes call up, it's a if already running and primed you can ramp up to full load within minutes.
This was in comparison to batteries where, depending on where in the infrastructure it's deployed, it's measured in ms or at most seconds.

 

[Spizz]

That was the entire point, it's not a within a few seconds call up, it's not a within two minutes call up, it's a if already running and primed you can ramp up to full load within minutes.
This was in comparison to batteries where, depending on where in the infrastructure it's deployed, it's measured in ms or at most seconds.

But these engines are not running, they are switched off and waiting for someone to switch them on to meet demand. Hence me talking about a cold start. Sure the fuel is prepped, it always is, but the engines are not running. But when called upon, they go from off to full power in under two minutes.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Sure, that wouldn't happen, the 2 minutes solution was gas. Engines using any type of oil are generally used for base load in Africa/Asia/South America.

This gas reference is getting confusing. Do you mean gas turbine or gas reciprocating?

 

[Cosmik Debris]

But these engines are not running, they are switched off and waiting for someone to switch them on to meet demand. Hence me talking about a cold start. Sure the fuel is prepped, it always is, but the engines are not running. But when called upon, they go from off to full power in under two minutes.

A 9.8 MW engine would need oil pumped around for several minutes by a swimming pool size pump before and during starting as the height the oil has to get up to will take the engine driven pumps a while to get it there.

Meanwhile, your turbos and valves will be operating for a while with no lube without a priming pump while waiting for oil. Ramping to full power with low oil pressure is not advisable.

And to check there is no hydraulic lock in a cylinder due to an injector, oil or water gasket leak would be essential before starting by opening decompression cocks and turning the engine over. Manual observation by presence or CCTV is required for this. Starting with a hydraulic lock can be catastrophic. I've seen broken con rods and a broken crankshaft.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Here is a video of a much smaller U boat engine being started. Note the manual preparation checks, which, although automated today are all essential before starting. Oil is pumped around and decompression cocks for hydraulic lock are shown being opened and shut:

 

[Johnatan56]

But these engines are not running, they are switched off and waiting for someone to switch them on to meet demand. Hence me talking about a cold start. Sure the fuel is prepped, it always is, but the engines are not running. But when called upon, they go from off to full power in under two minutes.

Are you blind?

Built beside Centrica's existing Brigg Power Station at Scawby Brook, which can be up and running in less than 20 minutes, five huge gas-fired engines – kept at a constant 60 degrees centigrade – wait for the call at peak times, with the first coming on Wednesday following commissioning trails that began in July.

That's how they get the fast response times to peak load of under two minutes.
Their own stats that they say is two minutes from a cold start.

And you still haven't justified your 500% battery comment that started all this (not even 500% of what), you still haven't actually refuted that the normal gas turbine is measured in the tens of minutes, you still haven't given a counter to batteries response within seconds, etc.

That's my last post on this.

 

[Spizz]

Are you blind?

That's how they get the fast response times to peak load of under two minutes.

Obviously. Why are you still talking about this? I've explained myself.

Their own stats that they say is two minutes from a cold start.

Yes. I know. We all know. Agin for the slow ones at the back, here is the procedure....

The engine is not running. It is switched off.

Someone in Holland presses a button (the site is controlled remotely)

Two minutes pass.

The engine is running at peak.

And you still haven't justified your 500% battery comment that started all this (not even 500% of what),

I told you I will quote the model when I'm at my desk. My office is at the bottom of my my garden and I may go there later if there rain continues and reference the study. Then again, I may wait until Monday.

you still haven't actually refuted that the normal gas turbine is measured in the tens of minutes,

Eh? What is this? You said the gas reciprocating engines start in 10s of minutes. I know nothing of turbines, I don't work with them.

you still haven't given a counter to batteries response within seconds, etc.

Why would I? I work on BESS projects. I was in fact on Australias second biggest BESS plant two months ago for a visit to say hi.

That's my last post on this.

To be fair mate, I'm not surprised. You turned what could have been a nice discussion into a typical MyBB schit fest by being rude in the first instance. You've nowhere to go with this.

 

[Spizz]

This gas reference is getting confusing. Do you mean gas turbine or gas reciprocating?

Gas reciprocating.

 

[Spizz]

A 9.8 MW engine would need oil pumped around for several minutes by a swimming pool size pump before and during starting as the height the oil has to get up to will take the engine driven pumps a while to get it there.

Meanwhile, your turbos and valves will be operating for a while with no lube without a priming pump while waiting for oil. Ramping to full power with low oil pressure is not advisable.

And to check there is no hydraulic lock in a cylinder due to an injector, oil or water gasket leak would be essential before starting by opening decompression cocks and turning the engine over. Manual observation by presence or CCTV is required for this. Starting with a hydraulic lock can be catastrophic. I've seen broken con rods and a broken crankshaft.

I'll bow to your knowledge with the specifics. As I said I'm not a mechanical engineer. But here is the spec sheet and details for the engines we are discussing, it will give you a better understanding than I ever could.

Wärtsilä 34SG gas power plant

Wärtsilä 34SG is a four-stroke, spark-ignited, lean-burn gas engine generating set for your power plant.

www.wartsila.com

 

[Spizz]

And you still haven't justified your 500% battery comment that started all this (not even 500% of what),

I'm looking at a power point just now and it is saying that to be effectively renewable, you would need 400% of baseload capacity in renewable's and 100% baseload of flexible generation (gas currently, potentially hydrogen in the future) to ensure reliability when renewable's can't deliver.

Makes sense I guess as anyone who is 'off-grid' would tell you they still have Eskom or a generator as back up. And why quick start plants like those in the UK that we discussed previously are still being built.

 

[konfab]

You're going to pay out all the farmers and supply the towns with many tanker trucks daily for those who rely on boreholes for water in the Karoo? There is no surface water and poisoning the aquifers will turn the Karoo into what it was before borehole technology got there - An uninhabited wasteland.

Are local farmers and towns getting their water from 2.5km underground? Where the shale gas is?

Ordinary boreholes are seldom more than 100m deep. Major water supply boreholes may go to 300m. Drinkable water aquifers may occur as deep as 500m, but below this, the water is typically brackish.

These shallow water supplies contrast starkly with typical shale gas operations at depths of 2,500m or more.

Yet the maker of a documentary that claims to show drinking water contamination as a result of hydraulic fracturing, Josh Fox, is unable to explain how exactly it occurs. “That target layers of fracking are far below underground drinking water sources was never contested by Gasland,” he admits. “We don’t know why fracking chemicals and fugitive natural gas are getting into water supplies, we just know that they are.”

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2011-04-13-karoo-fracking-scandal-exposed/

Karoo is a massive place, and it isn't homogenous in terms of its water sensitivity. Hence blanket bans are stupid.

 

[Lupus]

Go and have a look at the California Duck Curve. Gas is the best way to provide flexible back up to renewables.

Everyone has a duck curve, truly the only reliable clean efficient energy is nuclear, made expensive by the over regulatory measures and of course the misplaced myths of waste disposable and it's apparent deadly nature.
Yet coal kills more people, hell people don't seem to be to worried of the waste left over from other energy sources, they'll moan that radition lasts thousands of years, but don't realise that arsenic, lead, cadmium are deadly longer.

 

[Lupus]

I'm looking at a power point just now and it is saying that to be effectively renewable, you would need 400% of baseload capacity in renewable's and 100% baseload of flexible generation (gas currently, potentially hydrogen in the future) to ensure reliability when renewable's can't deliver.

Makes sense I guess as anyone who is 'off-grid' would tell you they still have Eskom or a generator as back up. And why quick start plants like those in the UK that we discussed previously are still being built.

Don't bother arguing with him, he's a renewable zealot, who will still push for wind and solar even when we're all standing in load shedding at night due to no stable base loads.

 

[Magnum]

I all for " lets gt gas out of the Karoo, start pumping oil from our coast and more coal." Unfortunately our governments is too stupid to do it in any form, Let alone in a clean and responsible way.

 

[Spizz]

Everyone has a duck curve, truly the only reliable clean efficient energy is nuclear, made expensive by the over regulatory measures and of course the misplaced myths of waste disposable and it's apparent deadly nature.
Yet coal kills more people, hell people don't seem to be to worried of the waste left over from other energy sources, they'll moan that radition lasts thousands of years, but don't realise that arsenic, lead, cadmium are deadly longer.

Here is a couple of pics I took while at Loy Yang A coal plant in Aus a couple of months ago.

Coal straight from the ground to the conveyor to the plant...



And from the observation point where the photo was taken, the posters are covered in coal. You can see that one person has scribbled 'this is what you are breathing in'.

 

[konfab]

Here is a couple of pics I took while at Loy Yang A coal plant in Aus a couple of months ago.

Coal straight from the ground to the conveyor to the plant...

View attachment 1361337

And from the observation point where the photo was taken, the posters are covered in coal. You can see that one person has scribbled 'this is what you are breathing in'.

View attachment 1361339

And I presume that is Australia, where emissions standards are much higher. Here in SA, that poster would be blacker than an EFF conference in 2 months.

 

[Johnatan56]

I'm looking at a power point just now and it is saying that to be effectively renewable, you would need 400% of baseload capacity in renewable's and 100% baseload of flexible generation (gas currently, potentially hydrogen in the future) to ensure reliability when renewable's can't deliver.

Makes sense I guess as anyone who is 'off-grid' would tell you they still have Eskom or a generator as back up. And why quick start plants like those in the UK that we discussed previously are still being built.

Would like to see that power point, and whether that's nameplate capacity, and that would differ quite a bit if you're talking about wind on-shore vs off-shore, solar, etc.
100% baseload in terms of what, two hours, an entire day, three days? Also that's not only battery, there's hydro. And 400% doesn't matter if the cost of it all together is still cheaper.
That said, solar/wind + battery is also getting cheaper (or has already achieved being cheaper) than gas\, so it's the natural route for most energy systems to go.

 

[Drifter]

Where does the gas come from?
Is the gas imported like diesel for the OCGT (Open Cycle Gas Turbines)?
Coal, Solar and wind are all local resources and should be prioritised over imported gas.

Yes, I agree. I hear the guavamint is going to import wind for us.