Court rules hidings for kids officially illegal

[maumau]

Who said anything about society?

..... or violence for that matter. A smack on the bum is not violence.

 

[Kakarot]

Do you know that the same people often either demand anecdotal evidence from someone or dismiss it out of hand depending on whether it suits their argument?

And Rambo scores an own goal!!

 

[daveza]

So I'm in a supermarket and some toddler is throwing a wobbly - I give it a klap on its butt ( applying some correction with love ) cos discipline.....

I will get charged with assault faster than you can say ouch.



I'm in a supermarket and my toddler is throwing a wobbly - I give it a klap on its butt ( applying some correction with love ) cos discipline.....

But apparently that is a good thing...



In which world is there any logic in that at all ?

 

[rambo919]

So I'm in a supermarket and some toddler is throwing a wobbly - I give it a klap on its butt ( applying some correction with love ) cos discipline.....

I will get charged with assault faster than you can say ouch.



I'm in a supermarket and my toddler is throwing a wobbly - I give it a klap on its butt ( applying some correction with love ) cos discipline.....

But apparently that is a good thing...



In which world is there any logic in that at all ?

Uhm.... the one is under your parental authority and the other is not your responsibility in any shape or form?

 

[2023]

So I'm in a supermarket and some toddler is throwing a wobbly - I give it a klap on its butt ( applying some correction with love ) cos discipline.....

I will get charged with assault faster than you can say ouch.



I'm in a supermarket and my toddler is throwing a wobbly - I give it a klap on its butt ( applying some correction with love ) cos discipline.....

But apparently that is a good thing...



In which world is there any logic in that at all ?

Why would you discipline another person's child?

 

[daveza]

Uhm.... the one is under your parental authority and the other is not your responsibility in any shape or form?

But you would be happy with teachers disciplining your kids ?

 

[rietrot]

Uhm.... the one is under your parental authority and the other is not your responsibility in any shape or form?

Lol that is a new low.

 

[rambo919]

But you would be happy with teachers disciplining your kids ?

If I had previously granted them the authority to do so yes.

 

[rietrot]

But you would be happy with teachers disciplining your kids ?

That's not the stupid random example from above. The kids fall under their authority whilst at school.

 

[Swa]

Like the legal case this ruling was based on when a parent thought that they were doing the right thing by beating their child.

Again beating a child isn't the same as a spanking. Everyone could see he was clearly wrong and they didn't even need to touch on whether spanking is right or wrong.

You don't seem to know about natural-rights, thus is it morally permissible for me to beat you?

Straw man. We are adults so you first of all don't have a right to discipline us. Indeed disciplining children is the expected norm.

Children have different political rights to adults. But the same natural rights.

Yet they don't, only if you conflate what political and natural rights are.

How things worked in the USSR is that the state was allowed to inflict untold violence on its citizens because it knew what was better for them. It was complete paternalism, the exact moral system you are advocating for.

No authoritarian state in the world's history has ever oppressed people by applying something like the non-aggression principle . How about we start with that as the founding moral principle for raising children instead of the "do what I say, but not what I do" principle you are advocating.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle

Again another straw man. Nobody is advocating for such a system by saying that a good spanking is alright now and again.

If they are incapable of applying reason, then surely it is fruitless in hitting them?
I would assume you wouldn't hit a 2 month old baby because it is crying?

What about a 14 year old teenager? Are they incapable of applying reason?

At last we are coming to the core of the problem and where we fundamentally differ. I hold the view that small children do have reason(and this is not unsubstanciated btw). What they don't have is the socialisation to deal with their emotions, and thus get frustrated about it.

Watch this video and tell me that children are not yet developed enough to understand or be able to apply reason:

You can see it on the older one's face as she is coming to grips with her emotions. Simply turning it into a game, where they should cry on demand in turn, then showing them how it is done, made it understandable to them. That is nothing else but reason.

No that's the part you don't understand. We are wired to associate immediate consequences with actions. You touch a hot plate and you burn. The release of chemicals fixes memories making you remember plate = hurt. A 3 year old is no different than a dog or a cat in that regard. You can't reason with them and explain why something isn't acceptable because most can't understand in that way.

The correct statement is that children aren't capable of reasoning the same way as adults. They are capable of limited reasoning associated with their age.

That doesn't prove anything. Not all children will react in the same way. Some will respond to a grounding while some will not or just ignore it. For them a spanking is in order. That's why this judgment is idiotic.

Children learn by imitation, which is what you don't seem to understand. This guy simply showed his children how to not vent their anger in a controllable manner. When you hit your children, they learn that it is acceptable to hit someone when they don't do what you want them to do.


How do you teach your kids that hitting other people is wrong, but parents hitting them is fine? You can only do it by instilling authoritarianism.

There is nothing wrong with authoritarianism in this case. Parents should have authority over their children.

You know what, I didn't want to say this but I think it's appropriate. YOU are exactly what's wrong with society. YOU are the ones this judgment speaks to. If you're incapable of understanding why it's not acceptable to give another adult a poesklap or to abuse children but why it's not the same to spank them in a controlled manner then you have some mental deficiency. You are likely the one that will go on and abuse a child if you had to hit them.

 

[konfab]

Again beating a child isn't the same as a spanking. Everyone could see he was clearly wrong and they didn't even need to touch on whether spanking is right or wrong.

Everyone except the guy who was making exactly the same arguments as you whilst he was beating his child.
:

There is nothing wrong with authoritarianism in this case. Parents should have authority over their children.

We are adults so you first of all don't have a right to discipline us. Indeed disciplining children is the expected norm.

So why do adults, who can cause a lot more damage and evil than children, prohibited from being disciplined, but small children, who at most cause an bad annoyance are anyone's game?

No that's the part you don't understand. We are wired to associate immediate consequences with actions. You touch a hot plate and you burn. The release of chemicals fixes memories making you remember plate = hurt. A 3 year old is no different than a dog or a cat in that regard. You can't reason with them and explain why something isn't acceptable because most can't understand in that way.

Preschoolers (Ages 3–4 years)

• Recognize shapes in the real world
• Start sorting things by color, shape, size, or purpose
• Compare and contrast using classifications like height, size, or gender
• Count up to at least 20 and accurately point to and count items in a group
• Understand that numerals stand for number names (5 stands for five)
• Use spatial awareness to put puzzles together
• Start predicting cause and effect (like what will happen if they drop a toy in a tub full of water)

https://www.understood.org/en/learn.../math-skills-what-to-expect-at-different-ages

How many dogs and cats can count to 20 and can understand letters? And can sort items by what they look like? You cannot even begin to compare the intelligence of a child compared to that of a dog or cat.

 

[konfab]

There is nothing wrong with authoritarianism in this case. Parents should have authority over their children.

You know what, I didn't want to say this but I think it's appropriate. YOU are exactly what's wrong with society. YOU are the ones this judgment speaks to. If you're incapable of understanding why it's not acceptable to give another adult a poesklap or to abuse children but why it's not the same to spank them in a controlled manner then you have some mental deficiency. You are likely the one that will go on and abuse a child if you had to hit them.

You are just completely wrong on this, if using reason, empathy and natural rights to make an argument that hitting someone is wrong, makes me more likely to abuse someone in your mind, you are the one with the problem, not me. I am not the one walking around with the deluded authority that I am always correct and thus I can inflict violence on the most powerless group of people in society.

What is the worst outcome if people don't hit their children and instead use less violent ways of discipline? You have a group of children who are taught consistently that initiating violence is wrong? Terrible outcome. You know societies that have banned it at home are just terrible places, with their decreased amounts of fighting teenagers.

. Rather, these results reveal a cross-sectional association between national bans of corporal punishment in all settings and less frequent physical fighting in male and female adolescents. This associations did not diminish after differences in country wealth and other factors were statistically controlled, including violent crime (homicides) and social programmes that support parent education and aim to reduce adolescents’ exposure to violence at home and at school.

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/8/9/e021616

My views are based on evidence, not feelings. You want to convince me that I am wrong? Give me a credible study that proves that spanking makes a country a better place.

 

[gottagoon]

I think it's time I unubscribed from this thread. Some people simply WILL not see. Cause they choose not to.

If disciplining kids has worked for hundreds and hundreds of years...why is now all a sudden a problem?

Let me stop there.

 

[rietrot]

You are just completely wrong on this, if using reason, empathy and natural rights to make an argument that hitting someone is wrong, makes me more likely to abuse someone in your mind, you are the one with the problem, not me. I am not the one walking around with the deluded authority that I am always correct and thus I can inflict violence on the most powerless group of people in society.

What is the worst outcome if people don't hit their children and instead use less violent ways of discipline? You have a group of children who are taught consistently that initiating violence is wrong? Terrible outcome. You know societies that have banned it at home are just terrible places, with their decreased amounts of fighting teenagers.

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/8/9/e021616

My views are based on evidence, not feelings. You want to convince me that I am wrong? Give me a credible study that proves that spanking makes a country a better place.

The study is fundamentally flawed. Correlation doesn't eqaul causation. And it relies on surveys, anecdotal evidence that you criticised earlier.

Obviously more troublesome kids are going to get more hidings not the other way around like your study pretends. They got that backwards because it's bias from the start.

Do a real double blind study with a placebo control then we can talk.

 

[Swa]

Everyone except the guy who was making exactly the same arguments as you whilst he was beating his child.

You can't make a comparison. The guy knew he was in the wrong and simply tried to justify it. There was no reason to entertain the argument of whether spanking is right or wrong. And do you really think spanking being illegal would have stopped him?

So why do adults, who can cause a lot more damage and evil than children, prohibited from being disciplined, but small children, who at most cause an bad annoyance are anyone's game?

Children aren't anyone's game. You're still not seeing the issue with your argument. As an adult you don't have any right that supercedes mine. Children aren't equal to their parents however.

https://www.understood.org/en/learn.../math-skills-what-to-expect-at-different-ages

How many dogs and cats can count to 20 and can understand letters? And can sort items by what they look like? You cannot even begin to compare the intelligence of a child compared to that of a dog or cat.

You don't know what you're talking about. You're conflating learning with being capable of reasoning. A 3 year old can't reason that putting their hand on a hot stove is ultimately bad for them. That's why nature has a response to that to discourage us from doing what's negative. You're now saying that parents shouldn't have the same response to actions that are ultimately bad.

Some people STILL go against nature by doing things like getting tattoos but they understand the consequences and that they have to deal with the scar for the rest of their life. A 3 year old can't. They're incapable of realising the consequences of walking around with a picture on them that they can't take off. They are no different that an animal in that regard. Dogs and cats have exactly the same reasoning ability as a 2 or 3 year old.

You are just completely wrong on this, if using reason, empathy and natural rights to make an argument that hitting someone is wrong, makes me more likely to abuse someone in your mind, you are the one with the problem, not me. I am not the one walking around with the deluded authority that I am always correct and thus I can inflict violence on the most powerless group of people in society.

Stop with the natural rights nonsense. You've heard a term and now you keep on hammering it without understanding what it is. The correct term is in any case natural law and it doesn't describe what you're describing.

But you're not making an argument that hitting someone is wrong. You're conflating a proper spanking to abuse as well as contending that disciplining children is the same a disciplining adults. If you really believe that then it is YOU that has some sort of mental deficiency that will cause you to go overboard so you should in all likelihood not be permitted to spank.

But I don't think you are really that stupid. You are just grasping at straws here in trying to make a nonsensical argument. You know perfectly the differences between them and why one is permissible while another is not.

What is the worst outcome if people don't hit their children and instead use less violent ways of discipline? You have a group of children who are taught consistently that initiating violence is wrong? Terrible outcome. You know societies that have banned it at home are just terrible places, with their decreased amounts of fighting teenagers.

Yeah like that has worked so well with the current bunch of animals that will burn down and vandalise schools as well as stab teachers. Again I will point out that it can be traced to the exact year that they would have turned 6 when corporal punishment in schools were outlawed. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/8/9/e021616

My views are based on evidence, not feelings. You want to convince me that I am wrong? Give me a credible study that proves that spanking makes a country a better place.

Your views are based on nothing but feels. You want to convince me that I am wrong? Give me a credible study that proves that spanking harms children. All of the "studies" you have conflate correlation with causation without correcting for other causes. It's far more likely that children who need spanking already have behavioural problems that predisposes them to being violent. It's like the studies showing that people who take supplements live shorter lifespans. No doctors are taking those seriously as people who take supplements already have underlying health issues. That doesn't stop the sjw snowflake brigade from latching on to similar junk science though.

 

[Ivork]

Small kids have no understanding.

My son, he was 4 maybe 5, was able to unclip the car seat he was strapped to in the back and I stopped at the side of the road twice to clip him back in and “If you do that again you getting a hiding”.

5 mins later “click” so I stopped again, took him out the car and gave him a spanking in front of all the passing traffic. Guess what – no more unbuckling himself.

Now I will be arrested for protecting my son’s life!

Maybe I should have told him when we get home (if you haven’t gone flying through the windscreen) you in the naughty corner ?

He stopped getting smacks around 6 years old when he could comprehend and understand and i could use different kinds of discipline.

 

[D3nz]

Small kids have no understanding.

My son, he was 4 maybe 5, was able to unclip the car seat he was strapped to in the back and I stopped at the side of the road twice to clip him back in and “If you do that again you getting a hiding”.

5 mins later “click” so I stopped again, took him out the car and gave him a spanking in front of all the passing traffic. Guess what – no more unbuckling himself .

Now I will be arrested for protecting my son’s life!

Maybe I should have told him when we get home (if you haven’t gone flying through the windscreen) you in the naughty corner ?

He stopped getting smacks around 6 years old when he could comprehend and understand and i could use different kinds of discipline.

Just wondering...how many times did you spank your son on that occasion? If my son had done that I would have given him a firm smack on his hand and said No! and that would have been enough for him to behave.
Some people will probably say that even one smack is too much...

The way I see it is that there's a way to correct bad behavior with a firm smack that is not hard enough to hurt and then there's punishment for bad behavior where the child is made to hurt...

 

[AstroTurf]

Alright, I'll stop spanking my children (one is 4, the other 11, they have had a total of 9 spankings in their lifetimes between them). But I will not stop from slapping my son's hand away from an electrical circuit or lighter. he is 4, he has nearly burned our house down 4 times to date. He also has this urge to put fingers into plug holes.

Anyway, after the last time he set a couch on fire and the flames hit the ceiling before I put it out, I guess I can call it self defense?

 

[Moto Guzzi]

The hiding thing: When I was at school a few teachers would pull out the lat some once a week, others daily.

In the history class was one guy that every day of his school life got a decent hiding, he was already old in the class quite and tuff behind I imagine, I felt sorry for him, teacher was a real bad asse. The pass for every day test was 80%, nothing less. Same for English and Afrikaans teachers. Hidings in the maths and science classes were rare.

What I observed was that the hidings did not much helped for those that got it a lot, but it surely worked for the rest of the class that rarely or never got hidings, so we had well behaved classes, something to think about.

Now what does a hiding on the backside do. It lines up your thoughts, and narrow it down to the subject that matter, for those who receive it and those observing, very low level but effective, seeing it is generally said that children are not adults yet. The message enter your body from a low level, rather than through your ears and not fully developed mind. Even the practise of excecuting a hiding had a dissipline surrounded itself, its not a case where the teacher goes haywire and off the track, he has to be a responsible person.

Now hidings like these are not suppose to be like a fist fight, murder, or physical attack on somebody. If theres no dissipline at all you live in chaos thats for sure. Some people always have dissiline from within others not, that why this excisted in the 1st place. Hidings are Low Level Communication, things like writing the same word repeatedly for punishment, withhelding money, or similar stuff are all Abstract punishments and may very well not have the desired effect in the long run because they are not understood as it should. Some people can think in practical terms, others just not.

If you sit with a situatuation where all the generations present as living beings and most are out of hand, well nothing would work along these lines.

The good well dissiplined people of the planet, does not matter which colour, which age, which race, which country, just remember YOU are not the problems on the planet, keep calm and hope for the best.

 

[buka001]

Small kids have no understanding.

My son, he was 4 maybe 5, was able to unclip the car seat he was strapped to in the back and I stopped at the side of the road twice to clip him back in and “If you do that again you getting a hiding”.

5 mins later “click” so I stopped again, took him out the car and gave him a spanking in front of all the passing traffic. Guess what – no more unbuckling himself.

Now I will be arrested for protecting my son’s life!

Maybe I should have told him when we get home (if you haven’t gone flying through the windscreen) you in the naughty corner ?

He stopped getting smacks around 6 years old when he could comprehend and understand and i could use different kinds of discipline.

Alright, I'll stop spanking my children (one is 4, the other 11, they have had a total of 9 spankings in their lifetimes between them). But I will not stop from slapping my son's hand away from an electrical circuit or lighter. he is 4, he has nearly burned our house down 4 times to date. He also has this urge to put fingers into plug holes.

Anyway, after the last time he set a couch on fire and the flames hit the ceiling before I put it out, I guess I can call it self defense?

JFC I am lucky with my kid. Never even attempted anything like this.