Covid-19 compared to Black Death and others

tetrasect

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Who has the better track record in predicting SA death tally? The state which ignored PANDA's advice and the results from the Diamond Princess, at 350k(justifying LD)? Or Panda at 20k?

SA now stands at 17,780... with the virus threat, in the form of further deaths pretty much over.

You can't seem to stick to what we are talking about can you? Always changing the subject...

As if that will sweep away the fact that you're talking a load of crap.
 

lexity

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You miss the fact that Sweden did have a lockdown for all intents and purposes, it just wasn't enforced by government.

If you look at mobility comparisons, for example with Spain... there is a clear difference between the 2 countries.

Sweden must surely have been affected by the fear-mongering to some extent, but it followed it's own agencies' advice to a definitely detectable degree.

If you look at corona virus excess deaths alone...there should be no detectable difference between Sweden and other European countries. Nothing that is not unqiuely attributable to specific factors. Corona deaths should be unaffected by LD.
 

lexity

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You can't seem to stick to what we are talking about can you? Always changing the subject...

As if that will sweep away the fact that you're talking a load of crap.

You raised the credibility of panda several times.

I responded.
 

tetrasect

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And?

Nothing you have highlighted in bold shows he denies Corona virus accounts for some deaths.

He just says that excess mortality will, over time, increase, as a result of LD.

'what is it has been particularly distasteful for us has been some of the researchers even have suggested that these might be coronavirus deaths'

'these', meaning excess deaths attributable solely to LD.

No. You get an F for comprehension.
 

lexity

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No. You get an F for comprehension.

Perhaps it's the 'denier' tag you are struggling with. And I don;t mean you are a denier... I mean the denier tag was put on anyone who dared question the mainstream narrative.

Pandas findings have not been professionally challenged, so far.
 

tetrasect

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Perhaps it's the 'denier' tag you are struggling with. And I don;t mean you are a denier... I mean the denier tag was put on anyone who dared question the mainstream narrative.

Pandas findings have not been professionally challenged, so far.

Well currently you are denying the words straight out of the horses mouth and coming up with some bizzare re-imagining of the meaning of words in the english language.

Here's another quote by PANDA, lets see how you are able to twist this into something it doesn't mean:

"We're going to have excess deaths here, but the excess deaths are being caused by lockdown and the policies of lockdown, not by Covid-19."

Or this slightly less confident quote:

"We expect the excess deaths identified in the SAMRC report, most of which are caused by lockdown, to persist—or perhaps increase—even as the Western Cape’s epidemic continues to subside."
 
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lexity

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Well currently you are denying the words straight out of the horses mouth and coming up with some bizzare re-imagining of the meaning of words in the english language.

Here's another quote by PANDA, lets see how you are able to twist this into something it doesn't mean:

"We're going to have excess deaths here, but the excess deaths are being caused by lockdown and the policies of lockdown, not by Covid-19."
...

Got a version that doesn't require a premium sub?
 

lexity

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@tetrasect

When Nick Hudson claims the LD has next to zero affect on the Corona virus deaths, if anything exacerbating them, what does he mean, if he allegedly doesn't believe in Corona virus at all?

And what about 'there is both under-counting and over-counting'? Of what, exactly?
 

tetrasect

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@tetrasect

When Nick Hudson claims the LD has next to zero affect on the Corona virus deaths, if anything exacerbating them, what does he mean, if he allegedly doesn't believe in Corona virus at all?
No idea, you'll have to ask him.
And what about 'there is both under-counting and over-counting'? Of what, exactly?
Of Coronavirus deaths. Globally. In the video (that you shockingly seem to still not have watched) he gave an example of how Finland initially didn't report deaths in nursing homes.
 
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tetrasect

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Aren't you the one asserting he doesn't believe in Covid-19?

I never said anything of that nature. In fact I have no idea who or what you are even referring to.

Well, there we go.

Yes, he said there was overcounting in some parts of the world (like counting "suspected" deaths which later proved not to be caused by covid) and undercounting in some parts of the world (like not counting nursing home deaths).

What has that got to do with excess deaths and your/PANDA's BS claim that they were caused by the lockdown and not by Covid? And that excess deaths would not decline but instead continue to rise even after Covid cases decline?
 

lexity

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I never said anything of that nature. In fact I have no idea who or what you are even referring to.



Yes, he said there was overcounting in some parts of the world (like counting "suspected" deaths which later proved not to be caused by covid) and undercounting in some parts of the world (like not counting nursing home deaths).

What has that got to do with excess deaths and your/PANDA's BS claim that they were caused by the lockdown and not by Covid? And that excess deaths would not decline but instead continue to rise even after Covid cases decline?

Let me ask you this.

You almost certainly hold the personal belief that an economy freed from top-down control, to the extent it was, resulted in a doubling of life expectancy.

Why is it so difficult to conceive that doing the reverse i.e. removing those freedoms, would reduce life expectancy?
 

WollieVerstege

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Well currently you are denying the words straight out of the horses mouth and coming up with some bizzare re-imagining of the meaning of words in the english language.

Here's another quote by PANDA, lets see how you are able to twist this into something it doesn't mean:

"We're going to have excess deaths here, but the excess deaths are being caused by lockdown and the policies of lockdown, not by Covid-19."

Or this slightly less confident quote:

"We expect the excess deaths identified in the SAMRC report, most of which are caused by lockdown, to persist—or perhaps increase—even as the Western Cape’s epidemic continues to subside."
What I find curious about PANDA's data, and the number 1 reason I don't trust their analysis, is that in order for us to view them as correct, we would first have to accept that what they are benchmarking against is correct.
This means we have to accept that the official numbers coming from our broken, ANC cadre infested health care system is correct. After 26 years of rank incompetence I don't believe for a second that suddenly and miraculously the ANC just happen to get everything right.
Don't get me wrong, I fully trust and support the health care workers. The admin staff behind them, not so much.
Any case, excess mortality is also tracked by life insurance and Reinsurance companies who have all seen massive spike in claims. They also track in great detail, much more than the state does, what people die of. There is no doubt from them that these deaths are largely directly attributable to Covid-19.
 

tetrasect

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Let me ask you this.

You almost certainly hold the personal belief that an economy freed from top-down control, to the extent it was, resulted in a doubling of life expectancy.

Why is it so difficult to conceive that doing the reverse i.e. removing those freedoms, would reduce life expectancy?

What the hell are you on about now?

What has that got to do with excess deaths and the claim that they were caused by the lockdown and not by Covid? And that excess deaths would not decline but instead continue to rise even after Covid cases decline?

Are you suggesting that "removing the freedom" to walk around maskless, party with 2000 people, attend massive funeral gatherings and go on vacation overseas somehow provides a better explanation for the excess deaths than the Coronavirus?
 

lexity

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What the hell are you on about now?

What has that got to do with excess deaths and the claim that they were caused by the lockdown and not by Covid? And that excess deaths would not decline but instead continue to rise even after Covid cases decline?

Are you suggesting that "removing the freedom" to walk around maskless, party with 2000 people, attend massive funeral gatherings and go on vacation overseas somehow provides a better explanation for the excess deaths than the Coronavirus?

Okay... you are not even on the same rung. Let's slow things right down.

Do you agree with this?

'an economy freed from top-down control, to the extent it was, resulted in a doubling of life expectancy.'

It's a question. Feel free to answer it.
 

lexity

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What I find curious about PANDA's data, and the number 1 reason I don't trust their analysis, is that in order for us to view them as correct, we would first have to accept that what they are benchmarking against is correct.
This means we have to accept that the official numbers coming from our broken, ANC cadre infested health care system is correct

No... was it stated?

Was it used to justify the lockdown? That is what you are being asked.

PANDA is saying the data from the Diamond Princess suggested 20k not 350k!

Which of those numbers do you think was used to justify a shutdown of the life-sustaining economy, in SA?
 

tetrasect

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Okay... you are not even on the same rung. Let's slow things right down.

Do you agree with this?

'an economy freed from top-down control, to the extent it was, resulted in a doubling of life expectancy.'

It's a question. Feel free to answer it.

Not really interested in discussing your economic theories.

Why can't you stay on topic?

How could your ramblings about "top-down control" ever demonstrate that it's not Coronavirus but the lockdown that caused the excess deaths and that the lockdown caused 30 times more deaths than it sought to prevent?

Seriously, you talk a load of kak and then when called out to defend it you try sneak around it by changing the subject, carrying on with the same rationale as if your kak talk had not been shown to be just that; kak.

No offense but the way you carry on a conversation/debate I can only assume you get slapped a lot. :ROFL:
 

lexity

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Not really interested in discussing your economic theories.

Why can't you stay on topic?

If you think economics is not the core issue, then this is why we are where we are.

We have all been led to believe it is not an individual adult's responsibility to understand basic economics.

We have been bombarded with economic jargon, which has had the effect of intimidating us and shutting down inquiry.

Basic economics is 100% relevant and 'on-topic'.

Money is 50% of every transaction. Which there are millions and millions of, each and every single day. It's not some theoretical abstract concept for academics.

If you can be diverted from taking an interest in such a vital part of your life.... it's game over.

To what do you, personally, attribute a doubling of life expectancy? Looking at where the human race has come from.

It is well within the individual's capacity to understand his roots... where he did well, and where he went astray.

As soon as this is 'out of your reach', your enemy has you where they need you... in submission... to them.
 

lexity

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How could your ramblings ever demonstrate that it's not Coronavirus but the lockdown that caused the excess deaths and that the lockdown caused 30 times more deaths than it sought to prevent?

Don't take my word for it.

Look at the PANDA team. Are they qualified? Is there a conflict of interest?

If you still don't trust them, what is it about Karim and the 'X, Y Z' communist command council that makes them stand out?

There is a difference between science and scientism.
 
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lexity

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How could your ramblings about "top-down control" ever demonstrate that it's not Coronavirus but the lockdown that caused the excess deaths and that the lockdown caused 30 times more deaths than it sought to prevent?

Not 'caused'... WILL cause.

Look at your roots. Your genes, alone, and your environment, would determine your outcome if it weren't for the uprising that culminated in 19th century.... the century of peace and the greatest boon to human wealth-creation the world has known. This is the story of human civilization. Go and look it up.

Anyway, you are misrepresenting what has been said.

Excess deaths are a combination.... of declining Covid-19 deaths and rising LD-induced deaths, rather than one or the other.
 
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