Cricket: South Africa tour of Pakistan 2021

Sinbad

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It seems to me we always make young guys the captain - young guys who are really good in their normal position. In QDK's place that's even extra load since he plays a dual role anyway.

The captain should be the best leader in the team, not the most outstanding player. The guy with the most experience, who the youngsters can look up to, who is experienced enough not to let the additional pressure of captaincy affect his normal game because it should come naturally to him...
 

ShloshMalosh

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It seems to me we always make young guys the captain - young guys who are really good in their normal position. In QDK's place that's even extra load since he plays a dual role anyway.

The captain should be the best leader in the team, not the most outstanding player. The guy with the most experience, who the youngsters can look up to, who is experienced enough not to let the additional pressure of captaincy affect his normal game because it should come naturally to him...

There are different types of captains and captaincy styles, no one of them are perfect or best. Theres only what is best for what you need.

How does QDK suit our current needs from a captain? i cant answer this question, but i do have lots of answers for why he DOESNT suit our current needs... is all im saying.
 

pinball wizard

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The captain should be the best leader in the team, not the most outstanding player. The guy with the most experience, who the youngsters can look up to, who is experienced enough not to let the additional pressure of captaincy affect his normal game because it should come naturally to him...
By your standards, Smith should never have been made captain, yet he's regarded as the best captain ever. Not just in SA, but in cricket.
 

JuliusSeizure

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There are different types of captains and captaincy styles, no one of them are perfect or best. Theres only what is best for what you need.

How does QDK suit our current needs from a captain? i cant answer this question, but i do have lots of answers for why he DOESNT suit our current needs... is all im saying.

In addition to some of his decisions, I'm not even sure if he has the full respect of his team-mates.

KG and Steyn have had goes at him on the field before. Would they have done that to Hash or Faf who commanded the full respect of the dressing room?

Hash was not a good leader but at least he had the full respect of his teammates.
 

JuliusSeizure

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He was a bit of a unicorn. How well has following that pattern worked for us since then?

He got away with his captaincy in the ODIs and T20s because lets face it, white ball to a large extent depends on who has more luck on he day and strategy is not as vital. Smith was a great leader in his day but I'm pretty sure we would have won most of our white ball games in the mid 2000s even had Gibbs been captain.

Test matches are like a game for chess where you have to carefully plot your strategy. He has now been heavily exposed.
 

JuliusSeizure

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The guy with the most experience, who the youngsters can look up to, who is experienced enough not to let the additional pressure of captaincy affect his normal game because it should come naturally to him...

Fair enough but remember, Kallis fulfilled these requirements but was never considered ideal captaincy material at any stage of his career.
 

JuliusSeizure

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Bavumas wont be captain as much as he probably has the potential. Only runs and a ****ton of them in no time is going to save his case for the captaincy. Honestly, im one of his hugest supporters. But ****, its tough to keep trying to justify his position in the side. captaincy talk is a distant dream. But for reals, hes probably one of the most elegant looking batsman weve ever produced.

Bavuma should have had many of those white ball opportunities that Markram had.

Bavuma made his ODI debut in 2016 (got a ton against Ireland) before only resurfacing in white-ball cricket after the World Cup.

As I mentioned before, CSA kind of screwed him as well because its become evident that he is more of a limited overs player and should have been in the ODI squad a long time before he was in the test squad.

In limited overs,in this age your opener does not need to be the most classiest but someone who can score a good 35-40 on a regular basis to set the platform for number 3 and 4 (who is usually the best batter in the team). Based on track record, Bavuma does that better than Markram in ODIs.
 

JuliusSeizure

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Smith should never have been made captain, yet he's regarded as the best captain ever. Not just in SA, but in cricket.

He did kind of benefit because he was surrounded by a golden generation (they should have won the World Cup in 07 but wilted against OZ in the semis).

I don't think Smith would have done significantly better than FAF if he was leading in the current generation.
 

JohnMao

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In addition to some of his decisions, I'm not even sure if he has the full respect of his team-mates.

KG and Steyn have had goes at him on the field before. Would they have done that to Hash or Faf who commanded the full respect of the dressing room?

Hash was not a good leader but at least he had the full respect of his teammates.
Agreed...that look from KG over the dropped catch said it all. I remember when he had a go at QdK!
 

JohnMao

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In addition to some of his decisions, I'm not even sure if he has the full respect of his team-mates.

KG and Steyn have had goes at him on the field before. Would they have done that to Hash or Faf who commanded the full respect of the dressing room?

Hash was not a good leader but at least he had the full respect of his teammates.
(11) Ind Vs Sa : Big Fight Between Kagiso Rabad And Quinton De Kock For Misfield India Vs South Africa 2 - YouTube

That was it!!
 

ShloshMalosh

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Lots of good points, but the milk is already spilt.

I'm more interested in moving forward from where we are.

KG and Steyn have had goes at him on the field before.
Thats more a bowler going at the keeper. Take it from a bowler. Unfortuantely, the keeper is also the captain.
And to that point, both him and dale are/were leaders of the attack, and have licence to get mad
I don't think Smith would have done significantly better than FAF if he was leading in the current generation.

The important thing is that smith was given time, from age 23, he was kak in the start but time allowed him to become one of the greatest international, let alone SA test captains of all time.

Time and opportunity.

Aiden is already 26, if they want him then name him sooner rather than later.
 

JohnMao

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Lots of good points, but the milk is already spilt.

I'm more interested in moving forward from where we are.


Thats more a bowler going at the keeper. Take it from a bowler. Unfortuantely, the keeper is also the captain.
And to that point, both him and dale are/were leaders of the attack, and have licence to get mad


The important thing is that smith was given time, from age 23, he was kak in the start but time allowed him to become one of the greatest international, let alone SA test captains of all time.

Time and opportunity.

Aiden is already 26, if they want him then name him sooner rather than later.
What happened in that KG/QdK story during the Indian tour (Faf was captain) was that QdK was being absent-minded, never saw the ball being thrown at him and missed it costing an extra run.
KG didn't take lightly to it. BUT...he normally doesn't just blow up (unless it's at Steve Smith or Joe Root when he gets their wicket) and I reckon something else had gone on there.
 

ShloshMalosh

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Ja, its not like KG was just being a **** guys, quinton was catching on kak... take it from a bowler, dropped catches, missed fields and silly runs will strip your moer, its bad enough when you going for runs, or the wicket is flat and nothings happening etc. and the batter are all just chilling in the slips and you have to run in in the heat.
 

JohnMao

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Boucher's leadership style has also been questionable and if he carries on at this rate, he is going to end up losing the dressing room. It's already well known that he got the job without an interview.

If it was a fair process, Klusener and Prince should have been considered.
I think that while Prince might be a good coach, he's got a bit too much baggage. Gibson, in my opinion, should have been given more time. He got given 18 months to win a CWC during which AB retired, but did he? Yes he did, and then he wanted to come back, but he didn't, but then the rumours started etc. etc. Right in the middle of the world cup. That was the straw that broke the camel's back.
And with Steyn going to the frikking IPL and getting injured in the 2nd game (WHY CSA let him go with his odgy recent fitness at that stage is anyone's guess) that was that.
Gibson paid the price unfortunately. And we started from scratch yet again...
 

ShloshMalosh

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He was a bit of a unicorn. How well has following that pattern worked for us since then?
He wasnt a unicorn, he was picked at 22, captain at 23, and never lost the captaincy unless through injury or of his own volition!

Thats a lot of TIME, and OPPORTUNITY! He wasnt domminant out of the gate, but he developed into one of the best captains.

He had more privilege than any other SA Captian in that he was also the de facto convener of selectors.

And lets be honest, he left because his privilege in the position was being threatened, because he ran a clique whos selection was guaranteed, at the time it was ok because they were all performing, but it was dangerous and needed to be stopped

Edit: he probably had at least 3 more years left, and if he stayed we would have probably continued to dominate world cricket. But no consideration was being made for future teams. What we see today is a direct result of that
 

ShloshMalosh

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I think that while Prince might be a good coach, he's got a bit too much baggage. Gibson, in my opinion, should have been given more time. He got given 18 months to win a CWC during which AB retired, but did he? Yes he did, and then he wanted to come back, but he didn't, but then the rumours started etc. etc. Right in the middle of the world cup. That was the straw that broke the camel's back.
And with Steyn going to the frikking IPL and getting injured in the 2nd game (WHY CSA let him go with his odgy recent fitness at that stage is anyone's guess) that was that.
Gibson paid the price unfortunately. And we started from scratch yet again...

Do not use that name in this forum please *spit
 
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