Cricket: South Africa tour of Pakistan 2021

JohnMao

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Whats the baggage?
I think race really. A lot of his statements are around that. Don't get me wrong he's got a stellar cricketing mind, but not sure that sits well with CSA.
Not sure anything sits well with CSA as they're in a mess.
 

JohnMao

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He wasnt a unicorn, he was picked at 22, captain at 23, and never lost the captaincy unless through injury or of his own volition!

Thats a lot of TIME, and OPPORTUNITY! He wasnt domminant out of the gate, but he developed into one of the best captains.

He had more privilege than any other SA Captian in that he was also the de facto convener of selectors.

And lets be honest, he left because his privilege in the position was being threatened, because he ran a clique whos selection was guaranteed, at the time it was ok because they were all performing, but it was dangerous and needed to be stopped

Edit: he probably had at least 3 more years left, and if he stayed we would have probably continued to dominate world cricket. But no consideration was being made for future teams. What we see today is a direct result of that
Might've won the CWC in 2015 if he had stayed...along with JK! They could have pushed us over he edge there.
 

JuliusSeizure

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I think that while Prince might be a good coach, he's got a bit too much baggage. Gibson, in my opinion, should have been given more time. He got given 18 months to win a CWC during which AB retired, but did he?

Gibson was at the wrong place at the wrong time.

There was a win in the AB situation because Rassie was basically thrown into that team as a wild-card and unproven player but took his opportunity well. He batted were AB was meant to bat and if AB did play, maybe he would have never got his chance? He was a late bloomer so it would have been easy to write him off due to his age.

Even if AB was there, maybe he would have scored some runs but that team simply could not match India, England, Australia and NZ on a like for like basis.

Stronger teams with AB at prime could not win tournaments so I don't see how an aged AB would have made a massive difference.

The fact that Amla was opening the batting even though he was far past his prime and clearly out of form was concerning but I don't think Reeza or Markram would have done much better than him.

Bavuma maybe, but he was simply not even considered for the World Cup at the time.
 

JuliusSeizure

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along with JK!

JK wanted to go to the World Cup originally and played until 2014. It was the reason he delayed his ODI retirement after walking away from tests in 2013. He was simply out of his depth towards the end and did the right thing by retiring before the World Cup rather than going there and ending his career on an embarrassing note.

He likely would have had to have been a reserve which would have not looked good and even if he was selected, it would have been due to his legendary status and not because of his form at the time.
 

JuliusSeizure

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Edit: he probably had at least 3 more years left, and if he stayed we would have probably continued to dominate world cricket. But no consideration was being made for future teams. What we see today is a direct result of that

He was having marital problems towards his retirement and if I remember correctly, he was out of his depth in that final series against Australia.

He did hint at a possible comeback after his divorce when he played in the legends series in the UAE a few years ago but he didn't get good scores which probably put paid to that.
 

JohnMao

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Gibson was at the wrong place at the wrong time.

There was a win in the AB situation because Rassie was basically thrown into that team as a wild-card and unproven player but took his opportunity well. He batted were AB was meant to bat and if AB did play, maybe he would have never got his chance? He was a late bloomer so it would have been easy to write him off due to his age.

Even if AB was there, maybe he would have scored some runs but that team simply could not match India, England, Australia and NZ on a like for like basis.

Stronger teams with AB at prime could not win tournaments so I don't see how an aged AB would have made a massive difference.

The fact that Amla was opening the batting even though he was far past his prime and clearly out of form was concerning but I don't think Reeza or Markram would have done much better than him.

Bavuma maybe, but he was simply not even considered for the World Cup at the time.
No look I was mighty p'd off. AB dedicated himself to CSA and next thing he was gone. I wish he'd stay gone. All this talk of him being available and they'll consult doesn't help. We need to move on now...time for grief ended in 2019 with that rumour coming out during the CWC that he'd made himself available and wasn't selected.
 

JuliusSeizure

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No look I was mighty p'd off. AB dedicated himself to CSA and next thing he was gone. I wish he'd stay gone. All this talk of him being available and they'll consult doesn't help.


I observed his body language and he seemed to have lost passion for international cricket after the 2015 World Cup. He was choosing when to play which would have irritated the bosses and didn't seem too concerned when he failed or the team lost. Younger AB was full of passion and used to cry at times when he failed.

But it's understandable. The influx of T20 leagues means that he plays so much, he probably became desensitized. Plus, T20 is much more lucrative and he has three kids now so he will want to be a Dad more than travel around.
 

JohnMao

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I observed his body language and he seemed to have lost passion for international cricket after the 2015 World Cup. He was choosing when to play which would have irritated the bosses and didn't seem too concerned when he failed or the team lost. Younger AB was full of passion and used to cry at times when he failed.

But it's understandable. The influx of T20 leagues means that he plays so much, he probably became desensitized. Plus, T20 is much more lucrative and he has three kids now so he will want to be a Dad more than travel around.
Agreed...seems like CSA hasn't gone through the cycle of grief though. Especially when they see him smashing the ball around in the IPL!
 

JuliusSeizure

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Klusener may be the best guy for the coaching role now. He is quite mature and also able to relate and have honest and open dialogue with people from all ends of the political spectrum. If he took the Afghanistan role, I don't see why he won't be willing to help out with SA.

We basically need a mediator right now and Klusener seems like that guy.
 

JuliusSeizure

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Especially when they see him smashing the ball around in the IPL!

Cricket has changed and I reckon good players from non-elite nations (i.e outside Australia, India and England) are going to sacrifice international cricket to become T20 freelancers.

The gap between India, Australia and England and the rest of the world likely grows in the coming years!.
 

JuliusSeizure

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The ICC should have given them a one off test against Afghanistan. It would be much more exciting than those invitational games and would be good practice.

Whilst SA will (probably) win, I rate they would have difficulty beating Afghanistan on sub-continental conditions.

Afghanistan have always fascinated me. Though a lot of their players fake their ages (Rashid for example who is probably in his late 20s or early 30s but officially 22), they are actually decent cricketers and all would cut it in SA franchise cricket, one or two of their first-team players might even have made the SA team.

How have these guys managed to get so good despite being raised in a literal warzone? I gather that cricket must be popular, at least in the regions bordering India and Pakistan?
 

thestaggy

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The ICC should have given them a one off test against Afghanistan. It would be much more exciting than those invitational games and would be good practice.

Whilst SA will (probably) win, I rate they would have difficulty beating Afghanistan on sub-continental conditions.

Afghanistan have always fascinated me. Though a lot of their players fake their ages (Rashid for example who is probably in his late 20s or early 30s but officially 22), they are actually decent cricketers and all would cut it in SA franchise cricket, one or two of their first-team players might even have made the SA team.

How have these guys managed to get so good despite being raised in a literal warzone? I gather that cricket must be popular, at least in the regions bordering India and Pakistan?

I believe cricket is the most popular sport in Afghanistan, being the only sport the Taliban allowed to be played. Ironically, it is war that helped grow the game and its popularity. Cricket was never established in Afghanistan, however it became a popular sport among Afghan refugees living in Pakistan during the Afghan-Soviet War. It was these refugees that brought the game back with them.

Still remarkable what they have achieved though when you consider the conditions the game has developed in.
 
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JuliusSeizure

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I ask them to look at the 2017 Champion's Trophy where we had AB and got our asses handed to us.
Unpopular opinion but I think Gibson did the right thing.

It would have been unfair to include a guy who wanted to pick and choose when to play ahead of Rassie who worked his ass off to get his big break.
 

sand_man

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Whenever people go on about AB and the 2019 World Cup, I ask them to look at the 2017 Champion's Trophy where we had AB and got our asses handed to us.
So you reckon we had a better chance without him in 2019?
 

3WA

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So you reckon we had a better chance without him in 2019?

I'm saying our 2019 team was not in contention for the World Cup with AB or without him. We were (and still are) behind the top teams in the format.
 
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