Crime pays: A different perspective on the crime situation

Mr TB

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No wonder the insurance only paid out only R500 000= for the vehicle and not R570 000=...:).

Which will be the correct procedure, no one is to gain from theft, the R500 000= replaces the original value of the vehicle lost for economical purposes, maybe that is just a bit hard to figure out...
In all honesty I am not so sure that you are actually correct:

"Some examples of exempt supplies include the following:
o financial services (e.g. interest earned for the provision of credit, life insurance, the services of benefit funds
such as medical schemes, provident, pension and retirement annuity funds);
o donated goods or services sold by non-profit bodies (e.g. religious and welfare organisations);
o residential accommodation in a dwelling (but not holiday accommodation);
o passenger transport in South Africa by taxi, bus, or train;
o educational services provided by recognised educational institutions which are exempt from income tax in
terms of section 10(1)(cN) of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (e.g. primary and secondary schools, universities
and technikons); and
o certain childcare services (i.e. crèches and after-school care centres)."

Please explain how the insurance pay out can be exempted as the person paying the insurance seem to be paying VAT on the mentioned product...
 

ToxicBunny

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Oh gawd its at it again

Dodo is arguing with itself.... *shakes head*
 

Mr TB

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Ummm, you obviously have less than no clue about how tax works do you Mr TB?

The VAT is included in the price of the new vehicle. The money the insurance company pays you is the settlement price of your OLD vehicle, which you then use to buy a new vehicle on which you pay VAT because it is included in the price.

The government DOES benefit via added VAT transactions from people replacing their stolen valuables.
So the settlement value of the car is actually the trade in value of the car should I buy a new car...
Tough M8... try to make the connection...
 

NoRulez

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Ummm, your understanding of VAT is seriously flawed Mr TB.

In any transaction that VAT is applicable to, there is going to be some "profit" for the guavamint. Yes a portion of it gets claimed back, but not all of it.
100% Bunny! :D
Why would ANY government then implement VAT if there's no gain?
Whenever ANY tax is paid, whether it be VAT, PAYE, SITE, etc., a major part of the full end product goes straight to government. A huge portion goes towards feeding the mofos that got caught committing the crime in the first place, so they also gain. The rest pays the salaries of the mofos "running" the guvamunt. (Higher taxes = bigger 4X4s) :D
The VAT amount that gets claimed back by the dealer/insurance/whoever is only the portion paid on the non profit part of the deal - VAT on cost price - the rest still goes to guvamunt via the "end user". :cool:
 

Mr TB

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100% Bunny! :D
Why would ANY government then implement VAT if there's no gain?
Whenever ANY tax is paid, whether it be VAT, PAYE, SITE, etc., a major part of the full end product goes straight to government. A huge portion goes towards feeding the mofos that got caught committing the crime in the first place, so they also gain. The rest pays the salaries of the mofos "running" the guvamunt. (Higher taxes = bigger 4X4s) :D
The VAT amount that gets claimed back by the dealer/insurance/whoever is only the portion paid on the non profit part of the deal - VAT on cost price - the rest still goes to guvamunt via the "end user". :cool:
Boet, the basic principle is to avoid double taxing an item. That is why the government avoid taxing the value of stolen goods again, it just make sense does it not?

The only reason, Boet, your salary is deductable as a company expense is to avoid double tax.

A huge portion goes towards feeding the mofos that got caught committing the crime in the first place, so they also gain.
For this part M8 please do not blame me, but rather the one you just gave credit. Seems to be a great fan of human rights...

The rest pays the salaries of the mofos "running" the guvamunt. (Higher taxes = bigger 4X4s) :D
You really don't know much about macro-economics do you Boet?

The VAT amount that gets claimed back by the dealer/insurance/whoever is only the portion paid on the non profit part of the deal - VAT on cost price - the rest still goes to guvamunt via the "end user". :cool:[/
I know that Boet , but that is not where the cancellation in the input/output VAT in the transaction where theft is involved actually take place.

You really need a bit of common sense, bookkeeping skills and some brains to figure that one out... hehehe...:)
 

ToxicBunny

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Oh, so when I replace my car that was stolen, they apply different tax rules or something?

You need to get a grip on how tax actually works Mr TB. Double taxing is common in this country.
 

HavocXphere

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Mr TB said:
Boet, the basic principle is to avoid double taxing an item. That is why the government avoid taxing the value of stolen goods again, it just make sense does it not?

The only reason, Boet, your salary is deductable as a company expense is to avoid double tax.
You previous logic (zero sum on theft) was wrong. This one is wrong too. Please don't do anyones tax work. And, no I'm not gonna bother explaining why its wrong this time round.:sick:
 

Mr TB

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You previous logic (zero sum on theft) was wrong. This one is wrong too. Please don't do anyones tax work. And, no I'm not gonna bother explaining why its wrong this time round.:sick:
You did not explain the previous time either... hehehe...

I only fill in my own return..., and were refunded R3000 to R4000 each year ..., next year there will not be a refund but there is a good reason...

Uhmmm... why do you want me to be wrong? An Insurance company pay claims out of its profits...

Not an unreasonable argument what do you think? and say the tax on profits of financial services is 35%

Suppose an institution make one million rand profit before a claim of in this case R570 000=. Leaving a profit of R430 000=, the tax payable R150500=.

The other scenario, suppose 14% vat should be taken of the claim, leaving a profit of R500 000=, the tax payable R175 000.

The problem in my view, suppose the insured decide not to buy a vehicle , the government lost potential tax... R175 000 minus R150 500 equal R24 500...

I just take a different view at things M8... :)... I am not very fond of financial services... their integity... eishhh...
 

HavocXphere

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An Insurance company pay claims out of its profits...
:eek:Maybe look up profit in a dictionary. Profit is what remains AFTER they paid out. They don't pay out of profits.

and say the tax on profits of financial services is 35%
You don't know anything about tax/finance do you?

The other scenario, suppose 14% vat should be taken of the claim, leaving a profit of R500 000
Look up profit in dictionary. And I think I already explained that VAT does not apply to financial financial services.

I just take a different view at things M8
Indeed. Pray that SARS does not review tax return. If its anything like this thread then you will spend a long time in jail.

You did not explain the previous time either...
Umm, OK. I give up. You win.:D
 

NoRulez

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It's really just very hard for some to grasp the basics of maths & economics... :D
 

Mr TB

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:eek:Maybe look up profit in a dictionary. Profit is what remains AFTER they paid out. They don't pay out of profits.
Does it hurt because I did not use the word turnover? ... shame...

You don't know anything about tax/finance do you?
How much do you know babyboy?
Look up profit in dictionary. And I think I already explained that VAT does not apply to financial financial services.
That of course is a lie, it apply to some financial services...
You will notice that there is actually nothing wrong with my understanding of the word PROFIT.
If an expense is incurred after the profit was calculated how to you make provision for that my bra...bawhahaha... sorry man... deduct it from the profit hahaha... don't be childish please...

Indeed. Pray that SARS does not review tax return. If its anything like this thread then you will spend a long time in jail.
I am not a financial consultant who hides his profit in a family trust M8... I am not a thief...
Umm, OK. I give up. You win.:D
Oh sorry I need to remember that in the current environment you can not make an assumption... You need to treat people as if they have not any knowledge of a subject...

That is indeed the difference when reading ancient writings... the assumption was that people carry at least the basic knowledge of the subject written about...

Common sense which it seems our generation have very little of should make it quite clear that income less expense = profit. A claim which is an expense will obviously cause a dent in the profit and less tax payable which agrees with my analysiis.

State the statutory laws stating that ALL financial services are exempted for VAT as well as income tax... I can't

Certain financial services are... but not the one under discussion. In my opinion you are lying until you can actually quote the statutory laws so that I can discuss them with my auditors...

EDIT: Do you want me to say, "Profit before taxation" and "Profit after taxation"?....mwahahaha...
 
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Mr TB

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It's really just very hard for some to grasp the basics of maths & economics... :D
The goverment wish not duplicate taxes, it gives a guide in measuring economic growth etc...
It is a great statistical tool for future planning...
Shortsightedness leads to anarchy like in Zimbabwe for instance... the mountains slip into the sea...
 

HavocXphere

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In my opinion you are lying until you can actually quote the statutory laws
Dude I'm not gonna go search through my tax books just to disprove your BS.

State the statutory laws stating that ALL financial services are exempted for VAT as well as income tax... I can't
I never said its income tax exempt.
HavocXphere said:
VAT does not apply to financial financial services
HavocXphere said:
2)VAT does not apply to financial services.
 

Mr TB

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Dude I'm not gonna go search through my tax books just to disprove your BS.


I never said its income tax exempt.
Dude I'm not gonna go search through my tax books just to disprove your BS.
"Some examples of exempt supplies include the following:

o financial services (e.g. interest earned for the provision of credit, life insurance, the services of benefit funds
such as medical schemes, provident, pension and retirement annuity funds)


The type of insurance you stated are clearly not mentioned in the above. The insured pays VAT to the insurer that is a fact. I know that because we insure our company vehicles and the building with a very well known financial institution.

In a claim when we are refunded the excess, it includes VAT, clearly indicating the liability of the financial institution. I know exactly how entries are treated when VAT is applicable... Is it possible that you are to proud admitting to an error... I made many previously without admitting it... don't feel bad ... part of the game...

;o donated goods or services sold by non-profit bodies (e.g. religious and welfare organisations);

o residential accommodation in a dwelling (but not holiday accommodation);
o passenger transport in South Africa by taxi, bus, or train;
o educational services provided by recognised educational institutions which are exempt from income tax in
terms of section 10(1)(cN) of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (e.g. primary and secondary schools, universities
and technikons); and
o certain childcare services (i.e. crèches and after-school care centres)."
I never said its income tax exempt
That was your assumption not mine...
 

ToxicBunny

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*rolls eyes*

He's at it again it seems... missing the point of legislation, and not having a clue HOW tax actually works. Does make for amusing reading though I will admit.
 

Mr TB

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*rolls eyes*

He's at it again it seems... missing the point of legislation, and not having a clue HOW tax actually works. Does make for amusing reading though I will admit.
Yes dude, amuse me with your knowledge of provident - and pension contributions... When will the actual pay out from one of these be taxed... :):p

Our clever financial advisor should be able to see the sameness between the pension fund and exempt financial services...

The pay-out is taxed to compromise for the loss in revenue because either the contributions to the fund were tax deductable or the financial service exempted from VAT...

It is clear that SARS is not really stupid, it will indeed tax the Fin. Service one or other time...:D
 

ToxicBunny

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OK... we're talking about VAT here... not your other nonsense... and you have demonstrated a complete and total lack of understanding of HOW vat works.
 

Mr TB

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OK... we're talking about VAT here... not your other nonsense... and you have demonstrated a complete and total lack of understanding of HOW vat works.
Well in all honesty you have demonstrated that... you are the most negative character and presuming making I ever noted in a chat.
You are like a dripping tap not able to add a constructive comment here or in the philosophical forum. Why you just don't keep your trap shut I really do not know...
 
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