Crisis in Ukraine

[Xarog]

Kiev seems to struggling a bit on the home front over their "fratricidal civil war"



http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150210/1018047496.html#ixzz3S8JxJfG4


http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2015/02/08/kievs-bloody-war-is-backfiring/


http://abcnews.go.com/International...ine-ongoing-russia-conflict/story?id=28893759


http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/02/06/when-ukrainians-choose-not-to-die-in-a-war/


http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/martial-law-be-imposed-throughout-ukraine-if-ceasefire-fails-1487990

So no freedom of speech, forced conscription, and possible hints of martial law , Ukraine is turning into joke.

Bah, you spoiled it. I was waiting to see if any of the people criticising Russia would post any of this.

 

[Seriously]

If Ukraine withdraws first, I see an end to it. Their pride won't let them and they refuse to accept they can't win.

How can they win against Russia?

 

[Xarog]

How can they win against Russia?

And the reason Ukraine jails anyone claiming it's actually a civil war is...?

 

[Jola]

How can they win against Russia?

If I was a Ukrainian conscript, I would also run, how can you fight the Russian Army ?

Just look at what the Russians did to that Malaysian Airliner !

 

[Jola]

And the reason Ukraine jails anyone claiming it's actually a civil war is...?

Because it's not a civil war, but a Russian invasion ?

 

[Jola]

And the reason Ukraine jails anyone claiming it's actually a civil war is...?

Because it's not a civil war, but a Russian invasion ?

 

[Seriously]

If I was a Ukrainian conscript, I would also run, how can you fight the Russian Army ?

Just look at what the Russians did to that Malaysian Airliner !

Look what they did to chetnya and crimea. Putin are set to restore the former USSR.

 

[Seriously]

And the reason Ukraine jails anyone claiming it's actually a civil war is...?

You tell me as you are the resident exspert in thumbsucking.

 

[Jola]

"We've gotten used to living in an upside down world with respect to Ukraine. Russia speaks of peace and then fuels conflict. Russia signs agreements and then does everything within its power to undermine them," Samantha Power, U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, told council members.

"We are caught in a deadly feedback loop. International leaders engage in rigorous exhaustive negotiations to get Russia to commit to peace ... yet Russia's commitments have no bearing on the actions of its soldiers and the separatists they back on the ground," she said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/17/europe/ukraine-conflict/

 

[Xarog]

Because it's not a civil war, but a Russian invasion?

You tell me as you are the resident exspert in thumbsucking.

It's because it's the truth and the Kiev regime can't admit it. I.e. they're fighting Ukrainians not Russians.

To suggest that the people in Eastern Ukraine do not make up the bulk of the people involved in fighting is absurd. Not even the Americans go that far.

 

[Unhappy438]

And the reason Ukraine jails anyone claiming it's actually a civil war is...?

A non Russian propaganda source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/10/ukraine-draft-dodgers-jail-kiev-struggle-new-fighters

Not arrested for calling it a civil war.

 

[Seriously]

It's because it's the truth and the Kiev regime can't admit it. I.e. they're fighting Ukrainians not Russians.

To suggest that the people in Eastern Ukraine do not make up the bulk of the people involved in fighting is absurd. Not even the Americans go that far.

So you changes your stance from NO RUSSIAN SOLDIERS to less than the bulk? Think for a change, why would you need the bulk to be russians with the first world power and advanced artillery they pack against Ukraine?

I still wonder what's in all this for your apart from a daily hard on?

 

[Xarog]

A non Russian propaganda source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/10/ukraine-draft-dodgers-jail-kiev-struggle-new-fighters

Not arrested for calling it a civil war.

Oh, sorry. He was arrested for telling everyone he'd rather be in jail for 5 years rather than kill fellow Ukrainians and is now facing a 15 year sentence instead. That's so much better.

Note: The Guardian's reporting has been no less biased than RT.

So you changes your stance from NO RUSSIAN SOLDIERS to less than the bulk? Think for a change, why would you need the bulk to be russians with the first world power and advanced artillery they pack against Ukraine?

For the record I never said there weren'r Russian soliders, I just said that the proof is inconclusive. And it's a position I still maintain. The point is that the accusations about Russian soldiers have always been that there are some soldiers there. No one has ever said there are no Ukrainians fighting for the separatists.

This is a de facto civil war whether you like it or not.

I still wonder what's in all this for your apart from a daily hard on?

You know that's funny. Your recent posts said much about your initial admiration of Putin, because you thought he'd help with the "liberation" of the world etc. etc.

I hate to break it to you, but the "liberated" world is basically a group of nations under the thumb of the world's sole economic superpower, which has arranged a "free" market to allow U.S. corporations the maximum potential to extract economic rents from client states. The world's financial institutions are arranged to this end (note how the U.S. has effective control of both the IMF and World Bank), the world's reserve currency is arranged to this end (PetroDollar et. al.). The sole criterion as to whether or not the United States designates a particular regime or nationstate to be "good" vs. "bad" is whether or not they support the continuation of U.S. world economic hegemony.

This economic advantage is the sole reason that the United States manages to maintain its superpower status.

In 2007 Putin spat in the eye of the tiger when he voiced his opposition to this status quo. Every subsequent action that he has taken in the international sphere has so far been in keeping with a strategy to oppose U.S. Dollar hegemony, and that includes Putin's reactions in Ukraine*. This is why Russia's national debt is so low, why Putin built up huge foreign currency reserves and also why Russia is now the 2nd biggest owner of gold (1st is China).

But when I point out that the primary motivations of both participants in their interference in Ukraine's domestic policies is economic, the idea is dismissed out of hand. This particular perspective seems to be of no interest to anyone. In fact, all of Russia and America's headbutting lately have had heavy economic overtones. Libya, Syria and Iran are all significant players in terms of world energy supplies. This makes them powerful potential pawns in the world's currency wars because he who controls the supplies gets to determine what currency the energy is supplied in.

I oppose the current financial system because at its very base debt is monetised and so therefore all money is in fact debt; and the existence of money as a debt means ultimately that interest must be paid on the debt. But since the money is in fact just a fiat and created out of thin air or by putting a bunch of zeros in a database somewhere, the fact of the matter is that someone's getting a rentier free lunch out of the deal. And it so happens that at the end of the day it's the world's banks that get this free lunch. And they've used their vast wealth and influence to pervert the world's institutions so that it suits their needs. This is why since 2007 the response to the financial crisis has only benefitted the top 1% while everyone else suffers grinding poverty. It's not co-incedental that Putin first started speaking about his intentions publicly at the same time that the financial crisis occurred. The way that the financial elite chose to address the asset/debt bubble was to re-inflate the bubble with more cheap debt but ultimately all it has done is make the bubble bigger. Insofar as Putin stands as an obstacle to those who would beggar the entire planet, I support his actions because I consider them to be directly beneficial to me as a person (and, quite frankly, all people in general).

*This is why I wasn't the least bit surprised when Biden's son suddenly got a seat at board of Ukraine's big energy company. U.S. influence over Ukraine's energy companies would be a big win for them so long as Ukraine is the primary route for gas to Europe. It would enable the U.S. to force Russia to continue selling it's gas in U.S. Dollars if it wanted to sell its gas to Europe. Perfect move when playing economic hardball, and a direct counter to Putin's desire to trade in other currencies as a way of undermining the Dollar as reserve currency.

 

[Unhappy438]

Oh, sorry. He was arrested for telling everyone he'd rather be in jail for 5 years rather than kill fellow Ukrainians and is now facing a 15 year sentence instead. That's so much better.

Note: The Guardian's reporting has been no less biased than RT.

He was arrested for telling people to dodge the draft and that he would dodge the draft too. Im a proponent of free speech so i don't support this but Ukraine has a long way to go to reform things like this.

You dont need to twist the truth though, it makes you look desperate. Why are you desperate Xarog?

This is a de facto civil war whether you like it or not.

Its an invasion under the guise of a civil war, whether you like it or not.

 

[Xarog]

He was arrested for telling people to dodge the draft and that he would dodge the draft too. Im a proponent of free speech so i don't support this but Ukraine has a long way to go to reform things like this.

You dont need to twist the truth though, it makes you look desperate. Why are you desperate Xarog?

Hi.
Your link:

Ruslan Kotsaba posted a video addressed to the Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, last week in which he said he would rather go to prison for five years for draft-dodging than fight pro-Russia rebels in the country’s east. Now he faces 15 years in jail after being arrested for treason and obstructing the military.

Is the Guardian now twisting the truth? lol.

Its an invasion under the guise of a civil war, whether you like it or not.

Yet you refuse to engage on that argument on its merits. In fact it was just when we were getting to that point that you were the one who said you "didn't have time" to continue the discussion. If you want to believe it's an invasion that's your business, but at every turn there is reasonable doubt as to whether that interpretation is the correct one. You cannot discount the possibility that the people in Eastern Ukraine as a general population did not truly believe that their lives were in danger because of what was going on. You dodge away from things like the Odessa massacre by saying that it's impossible to truly know what happened but you refuse to acknowledge that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck that people are going to believe that it's a duck.

So, no, I'm going to go with my original assessment. It's a de facto civil war, and the gap for not interpreting it as a de jure civil war is shrinking by the day.

 

[Unhappy438]

Hi.
Your link:


Is the Guardian now twisting the truth? lol.

Hi,

it seems you cant read. Treason and obstructing the military = calls for dodging the draft, nothing about calling it a civil war. Other people in Ukraine have called it a civil war and haven't been arrested. Still desperate to twist the truth, i wonder why.

Good night.

 

[Xarog]

Hi,

it seems you cant read. Treason and obstructing the military = calls for dodging the draft, nothing about calling it a civil war. Other people in Ukraine have called it a civil war and haven't been arrested. Still desperate to twist the truth, i wonder why.

Good night.

It seems you can't read. The "so" in italics when I said, "that's so much better," serves a comparitive function in the statement. In other words the statement was comparing being jailed for calling it a civil war to being jailed for telling everyone not to fight. Therefore it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to infer that describing his arrest for calling on people to refuse to fight must also be a supportive argument for the idea that he was arrested for calling the fight a civil war. And to wit, the "oh sorry" the response started with would in fact imply that an error had been made in the previous estimation.

The only one twisting words here is you.

 

[Unhappy438]

It seems you can't read. The "so" in italics when I said, "that's so much better," serves a comparitive function in the statement. In other words the statement was comparing being jailed for calling it a civil war to being jailed for telling everyone not to fight. Therefore it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to infer that describing his arrest for calling on people to refuse to fight must also be a supportive argument for the idea that he was arrested for calling the fight a civil war. And to wit, the "oh sorry" the response started with would in fact imply that an error had been made in the previous estimation.

The only one twisting words here is you.

You're still lying, its not about better or worse, I've already said i don't condone what they have done. You were trying to infer that the Ukrainian government is suppressing the truth to its population that its a civil war, in fact you were attempting to show to us that its almost proof its a civil war.

You even said it in response to someone who claimed Ukraine is fighting Russia, kind of like "well look if they are fighting Russia, then why are they arresting people for saying its a civil war."

But carry on with the desperate lies if it makes you happy. Personally im always happy to engage with people that have different opinions but honesty is crucial to that.

 

[Xarog]

You're still lying, its not about better or worse, I've already said i don't condone what they have done. You were trying to infer that the Ukrainian government is suppressing the truth to its population that its a civil war, in fact you were attempting to show to us that its almost proof its a civil war.

You even said it in response to someone who claimed Ukraine is fighting Russia, kind of like "well look if they are fighting Russia, then why are they arresting people for saying its a civil war."

Earth to Unhappy. Maybe you didn't also notice the remark about the Guardian being a propaganda source. You have two interpretations and I am under no obligation to take the Guardian's word for it just because you linked it. Refusing to accept your source outright does not mean that I am now lying. At worst it means I'm going to ignore the difference and focus on other sources for proving the argument.

But carry on with the desperate lies if it makes you happy. Personally im always happy to engage with people that have different opinions but honesty is crucial to that.

Twisting people's words isn't a very good way to show that.

 

[w1z4rd]

Earth to Unhappy. Maybe you didn't also notice the remark about the Guardian being a propaganda source.

The irony is the Guardian is hundreds of times more honest than your opinion that you are waving around here as though it has some weight. lol.