Crisis in Ukraine

Jola

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So you agree that the Guardian article claiming that the Russians fired on the Ukrainians from inside Russian territory was bullschit? Good to know.

No, that was a while ago, since then all the equipment was moved into the Ukraine.


If it's so distorted I'm sure you can show it to be distorted, right?

Paradoxically enough, that is difficult because there is very little in RT that is accurate. There is just too much, and I don't want to focus on some basic inaccuracies.

Instead, I will see if I can find something in RT that is accurate.
 

Jola

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http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson...-resigns-over-coverage-of-ukranian#.rhD9qwLD0

“It was the total disregard to the facts. We threw up eyewitness accounts from someone on the ground openly accusing the Ukrainian government [of involvement in the disaster], and a correspondent in the studio pulled up a plane crash before that the Ukrainian government had been involved in and said it was ‘worth mentioning’.

“It’s not worth mentioning. It’s Russia Today all over, it’s flirting with that border of overtly lying. You’re not telling a lie, you’re just bringing something up. I didn’t want to watch a story like that, where people have lost loved ones and we’re handling it like that.

“I couldn’t do it any more. Every single day we’re lying and finding sexier ways to do it.”

And another :

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/mar/06/rt-journalist-resigns-on-air
 

Xarog

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No, that was a while ago, since then all the equipment was moved into the Ukraine.
A while ago? The news report was from feb 17th.

Paradoxically enough, that is difficult because there is very little in RT that is accurate. There is just too much, and I don't want to focus on some basic inaccuracies.

Instead, I will see if I can find something in RT that is accurate.
Um, no. Either you show that RT is wrong when it said Dutch investigators found no evidence of military activity from inside Russia, or you accept the claim as valid. Hint: You're not going to find anything. The Russians made the announcement via official channels and you can bet the Dutch would have something to say about it also through official channels if the Russians were misrepresenting the truth.
 

Jola

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A while ago? The news report was from feb 17th.


Um, no. Either you show that RT is wrong when it said Dutch investigators found no evidence of military activity from inside Russia, or you accept the claim as valid. Hint: You're not going to find anything. The Russians made the announcement via official channels and you can bet the Dutch would have something to say about it also through official channels if the Russians were misrepresenting the truth.

The incidents of Russian artillery fire into Ukraine was months ago. Only the report of the analysis of this activity was recent.

And I am quite happy to accept that there is no military activity inside Russia at the moment as all of this Russian equipment and Russian military staff moved into Ukraine months ago.
 

Jola

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I see that you never comment on RT insiders stating that RT is lying and deceitful.

Why is this ? Too close to the truth ?
 

Xarog

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The incidents of Russian artillery fire into Ukraine was months ago. Only the report of the analysis of this activity was recent.
Ah yes, all on the word of a single blogger whose track record is dodgy at best. But I guess that's all a discerning person such as yourself needs to go on, right?

And I am quite happy to accept that there is no military activity inside Russia at the moment as all of this Russian equipment and Russian military staff moved into Ukraine months ago.
Once again, you really ought to contact the UN and let them know what you know. It might save US senators future embarrassment when the Ukrainians resort to feeding them photos of Russian armour from the Georgian conflict.
 

Jola

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Ah yes, all on the word of a single blogger whose track record is dodgy at best. But I guess that's all a discerning person such as yourself needs to go on, right?


Once again, you really ought to contact the UN and let them know what you know. It might save US senators future embarrassment when the Ukrainians resort to feeding them photos of Russian armour from the Georgian conflict.

It's all public information.

It's only the lies from RT that surprise people, because they are so outrageous.
 

Xarog

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I see that you never comment on RT insiders stating that RT is lying and deceitful.

Why is this ? Too close to the truth ?
Stating that because someone lies in one regard means they must always lie is a logical fallacy. Therefore trying to discredit RT when there are several other sources all reporting the same events really is a lame strategy on your part as far as arguing your case is concerned. Especially so when you're trying to repudiate claims that, were they lies, would be so blatantly easy to refute that any self-respecting Goebels wannabe would blush at the incompetence.

I've already stated that all news sources publish progadanda and falsehoods. That you can point to specific examples where RT may be guilty of such is meaningless. Trying to move the topic away from what a specific piece of information is as reported by RT to a general discussion about the worthiness of RT as a news source is anyway a topic hijack and I suspect you're trying to do it because you realise you have no case when it comes to claiming that RT was dishonest in this particular instance.
 

Xarog

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It's all public information.
The only public information that has been provided is unverified circumstancial evidence and speculation presented as fact. Just as with the case of the numerous claims about MH-17 over who was responsible and how. Have you given the Germans a call yet with what you know? $30 million is nothing to sneeze at.
 
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Imagine there were Ukrainian snipers on the rooftops for this rally, like there were Russian snipers on the rooftops in Kiev a year ago...

Russian government supporters are to rally in the capital Moscow to mark the first anniversary of what they view as a "coup" in neighbouring Ukraine.

Thousands of people are expected for a march actively promoted in Russia's state media under the slogan "We won't forget! We won't forgive!"

Ukraine's protests ousted pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych in 2014.

Russia has since annexed Ukraine's Crimea peninsula and is accused of backing rebels in eastern Ukraine.

The Ukrainian government, Western leaders and Nato say there is clear evidence that Russia is helping the rebels with heavy weapons and soldiers. Independent experts echo that accusation. Moscow denies it, insisting that any Russians serving with the rebels are "volunteers".

More than 5,400 people have died since the fighting erupted last April.

'Come, if you like your country!'

Russians are expected to come to Moscow from across the country for the "anti-Maidan" march - a reference to Ukraine's pro-EU protests that started on Kiev's central Independence Square, widely known as the Maidan.

Ahead of the Moscow rally, Russian state-run media urged all those who considered themselves "patriots" and were against "revolutions" to attend.

"Come, if you like your country!" Rossiya 24 TV channel said in its broadcasts.

The demonstration comes a day after Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko accused Russia of direct involvement in the sniper fire that killed dozens of protesters in Kiev on 18-20 February last year.

Speaking at a commemorative gathering in Kiev, he said Russian presidential aide Vladislav Surkov had organised "groups of foreign snipers". The president cited information he had received from Ukraine's security services.

The Russian foreign ministry hit back at the claim, calling it "nonsense".

The anti-Yanukovych revolt was triggered by a sudden U-turn that ditched a wide-ranging pact with the EU in favour of closer ties with Russia.

Rebel advance

Mr Poroshenko was speaking just two days after his army retreated from the key town of Debaltseve, now in rebel hands.

The rebels took the strategic transport hub, despite a ceasefire deal signed on 12 February.

An intense rebel bombardment forced some 2,500 government troops to retreat from Debaltseve, and dozens of others surrendered.

Meanwhile, Russian President Vladimir Putin warned that "no-one should have the illusion that they can gain military superiority over Russia, put any kind of pressure on it".

"We will always have an adequate answer for any such adventures," he said.

Ukrainian military spokesman Andriy Lysenko said on Friday that more than 20 Russian tanks, 10 missile systems and busloads of troops had entered Ukraine in the past 24 hours. There was no independent confirmation of the report.

Source : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31561769
 

Xarog

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Xarog

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Btw Poroshenko's days might be numbered. It wouldn't be surprising if he was saying everything he could in order to calm the national mood right now.

The “Exceptional” U.S. Suffers Crushing Defeat in Debaltsevo
by MIKE WHITNEY

“There’s no city left. It’s destroyed.”

— Anonymous Ukrainian soldier following the battle of Debaltsevo

In less than a year, the United States has toppled the democratically-elected government of Ukraine, installed a Washington-backed stooge in Kiev, launched a bloody and costly war of annihilation on Russian-speaking people in the East, thrust the economy into a downward death spiral, and reduced the nation to an anarchic, failed state destined to endure a vicious fratricidal civil war for as far as the eye can see.

Last week, Washington suffered its greatest military defeat in more than a decade when Ukraine’s US-backed army was soundly routed in the major railway hub of Debaltsevo. Roughly, 8,000 Ukrainian regulars along with untold numbers of tanks and armored units were surrounded in what-came-to-be-known-as “the cauldron.” The army of the Donetsk Peoples Republic led by DPR commander Alexander Zakharchenko, encircled the invading army and gradually tightened the cordon, eventually killing or capturing most of the troops within the pocket. The Ukrainian Armed Forces suffered major casualties ranging between 3,000 to 3,500 while a vast amount of lethal military hardware was left behind.

According to Zakharchenko, “The amount of equipment Ukrainian units have lost here is beyond description.”

Additionally, the US-backed proxy-army saw many of its crack troops and top-notch units destroyed in the fighting leaving Kiev unable to continue the war without assistance from allies in the US or Europe. The full impact of the defeat will not be known until angry troops returning from the front amass on the streets of the Capital and demand Petro Poroshenko’s resignation. The Ukrainian President is responsible for the massacre at Debaltsevo. He was fully aware that his army faced encirclement but ordered them to remain in order to satisfy powerful right-wing elements in his government. The disaster is even more terrible due to the fact that it was entirely avoidable and achieved no strategic purpose at all. Extreme hubris frequently impacts outcomes on the battlefield. This was the case at Debaltsevo.

The debacle ensures that the bumbling president’s days are numbered. It’s nearly certain that he will either be replaced or hanged sometime in weeks ahead. He has already flown his family to safety out of the country, and there’s growing speculation that both Washington and the far-right nationalists who occupy the Security Services will insist on his removal. That paves the way for a second Ukrainian coup in less than a year, a grim reminder of the tragic failings of US policy in Ukraine. Check out this blurb from a post at the Vineyard of the Saker:

“Looks like the Nazi death squads are on the march again, this time they are looking at Kiev. Thirteen death-squad (aka “volunteer battalion”) leaders have now declared that they are forming their own military command under the command of the notorious Semen Semenchenko. Officially, they are not in any way opposed to the current regime, so said Semenchenko, but in reality their rank and file members are pretty clear about what they want to do: organize a third Maidan and toss out Poroshenko.

What makes these 21st century version of the SA so dangerous for Poroshenko it that he, unlike Hitler, does not have a 21st century version of the SS to eliminate them all overnight. In fact, according to many reports the entire southern part of the rump-Ukraine is now “Kolomoiski-land” fully under the control of the oligarch who finances these death-squads. Add to this the fact that most of the Rada is composed of the very same battalion commanders and assorted Nazi freaks, and you will why Poroshenko is now very much in danger……

The sad reality is that there is simply nobody in the Ukraine capable of disarming these so-called “volunteer battalions”. There are now thousands of uniformed Nazi freaks roaming around with guns who can now impose their law of the jungle on everybody. It sure looks like the future of Banderastan will be something like a mix of Somalia and Mad Max – a failed state, a comprehensively destroyed economy, a collapsed social order and the law of armed gangs of thugs.” (The Vineyard of the Saker)

If Poroshenko is doomed to be the scapegoat in the Debaltsevo cock-up, it’s only because he followed the foolhardy advice of his Washington paymasters. Had he listened to his military advisors instead, he probably would have withdrawn his troops earlier and spared himself a Gadhafi-like demise. Now, that’s probably no longer possible.

Poroshenko’s desperation has led to an appeal to western allies and the United Nations for the deployment of a peacekeeping mission in Ukraine. The request is an admission of defeat and has no chance of being implemented, mainly because it violates the terms of the recent peace agreement (Minsk 2.0), but, also, because voting members on the Security Council (Russia and China) are certain to veto the idea. Clearly, Poroshenko, who is increasingly embattled and reviled, is grasping at straws hoping to avoid the same violent end he ruthlessly inflicted on so many of his countrymen. Here is a brief summary of recent events from the World Socialist Web Site:

“The debacle suffered by the Kiev regime exposes the utterly reckless and frankly stupid character of the policy pursued by Washington and its EU allies in Ukraine….

The initial attempts of the Kiev regime and its CIA backers to subjugate east Ukraine by sheer military terror, relying on fascist militias and select units of the Ukraine army that it considered to be reliable, have failed….

Nevertheless, Washington is pressing Kiev to prepare for a renewed offensive and is still discussing directly arming the Ukrainian army against Russia with US weapons….

In west Ukraine, the population is evading or resisting draft orders to obtain more cannon fodder for the east Ukraine war. At the same time, Ukraine’s economy, cut off from its main industrial base in east Ukraine and its export markets in Russia, is collapsing.

“The country is at war that they cannot afford to fight. There is no economy any longer….Gerald Celente of Trends Journal told Russia Today. “That $160 billion loss of trade with Russia has destroyed the economy, when it was already in a severe recession. It went from very bad to worse than depression levels.”

(“US-backed Kiev regime faces military debacle in east Ukraine war“, Alex Lantier, World Socialist Web Site

Washington has largely won the information war, having persuaded Congress and the American people that US policy in Ukraine is “just”, but on the ground, where it counts, Washington has encountered one catastrophic failure after another. This process will undoubtedly persist until the costs are too exorbitant to bear.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/02/20/the-exceptional-u-s-suffers-crushing-defeat-in-debaltsevo/
 

Jola

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Stating that because someone lies in one regard means they must always lie is a logical fallacy. Therefore trying to discredit RT when there are several other sources all reporting the same events really is a lame strategy on your part as far as arguing your case is concerned. Especially so when you're trying to repudiate claims that, were they lies, would be so blatantly easy to refute that any self-respecting Goebels wannabe would blush at the incompetence.

I've already stated that all news sources publish progadanda and falsehoods. That you can point to specific examples where RT may be guilty of such is meaningless. Trying to move the topic away from what a specific piece of information is as reported by RT to a general discussion about the worthiness of RT as a news source is anyway a topic hijack and I suspect you're trying to do it because you realise you have no case when it comes to claiming that RT was dishonest in this particular instance.

The insiders said that RS lied in most respects, ie you cannot at the first instance believe anything that they say.

So we cannot have meaningful discussions in this thread because you always use unreliable sources.
 
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Xarog

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The insiders said that RS lied in most respects, ie you cannot at the first instance believe anything that they say.
Repeating yourself does not an argument make.

But mentioning repetition: have you called that German company offering the $30 million reward for proof of what happened to MH-17 yet?
 

Jola

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have you called that German company offering the $30 million reward for proof of what happened to MH-17 yet?

I'm sure that the Russian BUK operator will claim that.

Or maybe not when he realises that his War Crimes legal defence fees will be USD100 million.
 

Xarog

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I'm sure that the Russian BUK operator will claim that.

Or maybe not when he realises that his War Crimes legal fees will be USD100 million.
So in other words you haven't called to claim your reward?
 

Xarog

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Why should I claim any reward due to the Russian BUK operator ?
It's not due to the buk operator, it's for anyone who can prove what happened to MH-17. You said you know what happened, didn't you?
 

Unhappy438

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Moody's downgrades Russia sovereign debt to junk


Moody's Investors Service downgraded Russia's sovereign debt to junk status on Friday, citing the crisis in Ukraine and the falling price of oil.
Moody's cut Russia's rating to Ba1 from Baa3, with a negative outlook.

"Russia is expected to experience a deep recession in 2015 and a continued contraction in 2016," the ratings agency said in a statement.

Moody's also warned of the—still remote—possibility that Russia could decide on an extreme response to Western pressure over Ukraine.

"The risk is rising, although still very low, that the international response to the military conflict in Ukraine triggers a decision by the Russian authorities that directly or indirectly undermines timely payments on external debt service," it said.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102413689
 

Unhappy438

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Lukashenka Says Belarus Ready For Dialogue With NATO

Belarusian President Alyaksandr Lukashenka says his country is ready for a "constructive dialogue" with NATO.

Speaking to top Belarusian military officials in Minsk on February 19, Lukashenka said: "As a sovereign state we are open, in particular, to constructive dialogue with NATO on parity and transparency principles."

He added that "we have a lot of common issues [with NATO]; joint work on which fully meets Belarus’s interests."

Lukashenka -- who has ruled for 21 years and been called the last dictator of Europe -- said the fighting in Ukraine has shown that Belarus must have an army capable of protecting "its national interests."

"If need be, we have to be able to defend the independence and sovereignty of our country," he said.

Lukashenka added that additional finances will be allocated for the ongoing systemic renovation of arms in Belarusian armed forces which is scheduled to be accomplished by 2020.

http://www.rferl.org/content/lukashenka-says-minsk-ready-for-nato-talks/26858369.html
 
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