Crisis in Ukraine

[Seriously]

This is about as deep as our forum opponent gets, Xarog, he should stick to posting slanted news reports. I believe he's Ukrainian, so his views are entrenched no matter who's in charge over there.

...and I am sure he believes you must be an South African going by your comments. Benoni or Soweto?

 

[TriGuN]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ked-from-vladimir-putins-office-10069203.html

Russia's roadmap for annexing eastern Ukraine 'leaked from Vladimir Putin's office'

One of Russia's leading independent newspapers says it has received a bombshell document showing Putin's office put together a 'step-by-step' guide to taking Crimea and other eastern Ukrainian provinces more than a year ago

Moscow has been planning to annex parts of Ukraine for more than 12 months, according to sensational claims made in a Russian newspaper.

Vladimir Putin’s office reportedly compiled a detailed roadmap of how a "pro-Russian drift" could allow it to seize Crimea and some eastern provinces, just a few weeks prior to the ousting of President Viktor Yanukovych and the start of the Ukrainian crisis.

According to a document allegedly leaked to the Novaya Gazeta newspaper, Russia had identified Mr Yanukovych as “politically bankrupt”, and outlined a plan by which a “coup” would set in motion events ultimately leading to Russian expansion.

The extraordinary claims made by the newspaper, which is one of the last independent media outlets in the country and was recently nominated for the 2015 Nobel Peace Prize for its investigations, could not be independently verified.

The alleged document, translated into English by the Kyiv Post, was reportedly provided to Mr Putin’s office for consideration between 4 and 12 February 2014 – the same month that Mr Yanukovych was removed by the Ukrainian parliament.

Novaya Gazeta reported in its introduction that the events that have followed in the past year in Ukraine resemble with “a great deal of correlation” the “step-by-step [guide to] the basis, political and PR logistics of Russia's interference into Ukrainian affairs and estrangement from Ukraine of Crimea and eastern provinces”.

Among the highlighted details of the plan are “a pejorative assessment of Yanukovych, whom Russia later presented as a victim of a coup and the only legitimate leader of Ukraine”.

It details the eastern, cross-border regions of “Donbas” and “Dnepr”, among others, as “euroregions” that are “legitimate from the point of view of the European Union”.

“Using [this] instrument, Russia should achieve deals on cross-border cooperation and then establish direct interstate relations with the Ukrainian territories where stable pro-Russian electoral sentiments exist,” the alleged document reads.

The document also suggests that Russia’s support for such territories “will obviously be a burden for the budget in the current situation”, but adds that “in geopolitical perspective it will give us a priceless gain – our country will receive access to new demographic resources and highly-qualified personnel in the industrial and transport sphere”.

One section of the document appears to lay out the need for the destabilisation of “events in western Ukraine”. “To launch the process of the ‘pro-Russian drift’ of Crimean and Eastern Ukrainian territories, it's needed to create the events that would give this process political legitimacy and moral justification, beforehand,” it reads.

In his most recent comments on the Ukrainian crisis during an interview with Russian state TV, Mr Putin repeated denials that his government was providing support to rebels in eastern Ukraine.

The Novaya Gazeta report, issued on Tuesday evening, came as a long-awaited truce appeared to be taking hold in eastern Ukraine with the start of the withdrawal of heavy weapons from the front line.

A truce agreed in Minsk by Russia, Ukraine, France and Germany was due begin on 15 February, and after a shaky start seemed on Wednesday to have halted most of the violence on the frontline.

The OSCE says it cannot yet verify the withdrawal because the sides have not said how many guns were in place before the truce. It reported some shelling and shooting at various locations, including near Shyrokyne, a coastal town on the road to Mariupol where Kiev has also reported fighting.

The Kiev military nevertheless said the number of ceasefire violations had "significantly decreased" for a second straight night, and its account of the past 24 hours was the calmest since the truce was agreed in the Belarusian capital.

 

[w1z4rd]

I see more of the world is mobilizing.

USA, Canada, Britain and now the UAE. Im sure more and more countries are going to assist them against the Russian terrorist invasion.

 

[AntiGanda]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ked-from-vladimir-putins-office-10069203.html

This so-called document has not been released in its original form or verified.

Secondly, the newspaper is owned and run by Putin's political opposition, and has a record of proprietry abuse of privilege - one of the biggest media issues in Russia.

 

[AntiGanda]

I see more of the world is mobilizing.

USA, Canada, Britain and now the UAE. Im sure more and more countries are going to assist them against the Russian terrorist invasion.

The UAE is upset with Russia over the oil price. The US is a huge supplier of arms to the UAE, which seems to have found a way of re-directing them to Ukraine.

Canada hasn't sent weapons either, and their stance is not new.

 

[Xarog]

Then he should just say that, NATO legion makes him sound like a mad idiot.

I do not think that prescription would be reasonable of any world leader.

Anyway i've got work to do, im not really in the mood to get into some deep conversation with you.

The conversation is pretty simple actually. Russia has been behaving rationally since the start of this conflict and one can test that hypothesis against any of the events that have occurred thus far.

Example : Russia's access to the base in sevastopol was granted under a treaty with Ukraine. Russia was happy to re-negotiate its terms for access to the base when the old treaty expired. People in the Maidan threatened to revoke this treaty unilaterally, the last time the Rada ratified the agreement between Ukraine and Russia there were several voices very vocally opposed to the treaty, and those same groups of people were the ones being supported by the United States.

As we have seen by the description of the chain of events in the House of Lords report, Russia and the EU were engaging in diplomatic and economic battles with each other over the future of Ukraine. That Russia had to use extreme economic leverage to get Yanukovych to refuse to sign the association articles is clearly circumstancial evidence to show that Yanukovych was not in Russia's pocket.

Given American past behaviour and given the sentiments of the people involved in the coup, one can clearly see that Russia would have interpreted U.S. actions as an attempt to destabilise Russia's national interests. The naval base at Sevastopol is of immense strategic importance to Russia as it is Russia's only warm water naval base.

Do I think that there was room for improved behaviour on Russia's side? Sure. But at the same time, you put any sane person in charge of leading a country like Russia, and if that person is sincere in doing their duties and making sure that Russia's well-being is not at risk then frankly that person would have no choice but to choose to annex Crimea by force as quickly and as bloodlessly as possible. There simply is no other solution which does not carry a decided risk of the base being lost, and the Americans were already there and its obvious they would do everything they could to stymie such efforts. I don't think any person aware of the situation as it stood would roll the dice on the affair if they were sane. And I think this is true of the vast majority of the decisions Russia has taken since the outbreak of the Maiden protests.

Edit : http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-25/regret-why-take-chance

This article is unrelated to Russia but it does a great job of explaining expected human behaviour in situations which carry large and unknowable risks.

I would still be in favour of a 2nd referendum guaranteed to be free and fair by impartial observers in Crimea, though.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

This so-called document has not been released in its original form or verified.

Secondly, the newspaper is owned and run by Putin's political opposition, and has a record of proprietry abuse of privilege - one of the biggest media issues in Russia.

Da, comrade! Clearly Putin needs to increase his clampdown on media freedom and murder or jail some more journalists.

 

[Xarog]

I see more of the world is mobilizing.

USA, Canada, Britain and now the UAE. Im sure more and more countries are going to assist them against the Russian terrorist invasion.

Lol.

US lapdogs maybe. France and Germany stand opposed to increasing tensions. The rest of the EU isn't going to back the UK over those two, so that leaves Middle Eastern countries, Asian countries and African countries. And as I oh so recently pointed out, Putin has already told everyone exactly how Russia will treat those armed forces.

The United States will not risk nukes over Kiev but Russia might. That makes this entire affair a game of chicken and Russia's going to be the last to blink, not the first. So once again I ask, exactly how do you think this is going to play out?

P.S. what's the post count up to? Those Ukrainians are now in dire need of aid although I wouldn't send Hryvna this time if I were you.

 

[Unhappy438]

Poland to Send Troops to Help Train Ukrainian Army: Inside Poland Exclusive

Poland is to send ‘several dozen’ troops to Ukraine to help train the army there in their de facto war with Russia—but a Russian news portal says ‘nothing new’.

Defence ministry advisor Bogusław Pacek has confirmed that Poland will follow the example of the United Kingdom, which this week said it would send 75 army trainers.

Mr Pacek said: “The Ministry of Defence intends to send Polish instructors to support the training of Ukrainian non-commissioned officers.”

He declined to state the exact number, but said it could be up to several dozen.

Last week, a joint report from American think tanks said that Poland was in prime position to aid Ukraine with military support.

The report also highlighted the UK, along with Canada and the Baltic States, as countries that should be approached.

It said: “Poland, in particular, as a former Warsaw Pact member, should be able to help with consumables and spare parts, as well as compatible equipment, since the bulk of Ukraine’s equipment is Soviet in origin.”

As Inside-Poland.com went to press, the Russian news portal Polska-Kaliningrad.ru said Poland had been supporting training missions in Ukraine for several months.

However, the Polish media watchdog is already set to investigate the actions of Russian media in Poland, following comments from MPs and MEPs that the West was in danger of losing the propaganda war with Moscow.

http://www.krakowpost.com/article/8774

 

[AntiGanda]

Da, comrade! Clearly Putin needs to increase his clampdown on media freedom and murder or jail some more journalists.

The media was far too unregulated with newspapers popping up everywhere as the mouthpieces of their owners.

Please submit proof that the Russian government murdered any journalist or just please refrain from repeating conspiracy tinfoil hat theories.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

The media was far too unregulated with newspapers popping up everywhere as the mouthpieces of their owners.

Please submit proof that the Russian government murdered any journalist or just please refrain from repeating conspiracy tinfoil hat theories.

Da, comrade! It's all Western lies! No journalists were ever beaten or killed, and press freedom is alive and well!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_Russia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_Russia#Assaults_on_journalists

 

[Xarog]

Da, comrade! It's all Western lies! No journalists were ever beaten or killed, and press freedom is alive and well!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_Russia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_Russia#Assaults_on_journalists

What you ought to remember is, since all of the cold war era propaganda was directed against Russia, that Russia is in the best possible position to tell exactly how effective propaganda can be as well as how often it was used. I am not surprised they are completely paranoid when it comes to journalism funded by potentially dubious sources.

Not that it justifies any crackdowns on honest reporting, though.

 

[Unhappy438]

Da, comrade! It's all Western lies! No journalists were ever beaten or killed, and press freedom is alive and well!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_Russia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_Russia#Assaults_on_journalists

The killing is only half of it as well, before that they will try things like coming into your house and moving your furniture around or leaving a gun at your doorway.

 

[w1z4rd]

Poland to Send Troops to Help Train Ukrainian Army: Inside Poland Exclusive



http://www.krakowpost.com/article/8774

Awesome, more and more countries joining. If this boiler keeps steaming, nothing will stop it.

 

[Xarog]

Awesome, more and more countries joining. If this boiler keeps steaming, nothing will stop it.

So wait, you're actually hoping the boiler blows?

 

[w1z4rd]

So wait, you're actually hoping the boiler blows?

Learn to read.

 

[w1z4rd]

Norway to restructure military in response to Russian 'aggression'

Norway’s defence minister says Russia has re-opened bases in its far north that have been shut since the cold war

Norway’s defence minister has said her country’s armed forces will be restructured so they can respond faster to what she called increased Russian aggression.

Ine Eriksen Soreide said that Russia had recently re-opened military bases in its far north that had been shut down after the cold war, and that there had also been an increase in flights by Russian warplanes close to Norwegian airspace.

“We have seen in the first couple of months of this year a certain increase compared to the same period last year and ... an increased complexity. We see they fly longer, they fly with more different kinds of airplanes and their patterns are different than they used to be,” Soreide told the Guardian during a visit to London.

“They have not breached our territory and that is different from what is happening in the Baltic Sea area. They are breaching territory there all the time and in the Baltic area they have also seen three times as many flights as normal or usual,” she added.

Soreide said Norway was stepping up military cooperation with the Baltic states – Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania – as a means of reassuring them that they were fully covered by Nato’s collective security umbrella. Furthermore, Norway was “absolutely” ready to expand training of Ukrainian soldiers, she said, predicting that more Nato states would follow the British example of dispatching trainers and non-lethal equipment to support Ukraine.

Those Russian terrorists in Ukraine are going to get what they deserve one day.

 

[Xarog]

Learn to read.

I can read just fine. It's not my fault if your choice of phrasing is ambiguous.

But have you learned to count yet? What's the post count at?

P.S. That was the 2nd time I asked you to elaborate on what you think is going to happen in Ukraine. This is now the 3rd time. What exactly do you expect such troop movements to achieve? Can you say why you think it is a good thing or is it just that you suffer from Russophobia and these stories make you lather at the mouth over the prospect of someone sticking one to Putin?

Edit: I'm inclined to presume the latter. Anyone who throws thousands of rands away just to irritate people he sees as being pro-Putin is obviously a little over-invested in the subject matter.

 

[Seriously]

Learn to read.

He only loves to read the russian propaganda he posts.

 

[AntiGanda]

So wait, you're actually hoping the boiler blows?

Clearly not a candidate for any peace prize. Obama supporter I'm guessing - though how he got that Nobel prize is a mystery!