Crisis in Ukraine

[Unhappy438]

Two policeman were shot and killed in Kharkiv last night.

The USA has no authority in China.

Yet they were able to force China into sanctions with Iran.

 

[Albereth]

Two policeman were shot and killed in Kharkiv last night.



Yet they were able to force China into sanctions with Iran.

Force?

 

[DreamKing]

Yet they were able to force China into sanctions with Iran.

when?

 

[Unhappy438]

Force?

when?

In 2011, by threatening to cut them off from the US financial system. They did it to South Africa also.

 

[DreamKing]

In 2011, by threatening to cut them off from the US financial system. They did it to South Africa also.

SA -> yes
China -> Never

source please if you say "yes, China did."

 

[Space_Chief]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-13/ron-paul-putins-crimea-invasion-has-law-its-side
USA can't complain about Crimea as they have Gitmo.

 

[DreamKing]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-13/ron-paul-putins-crimea-invasion-has-law-its-side
USA can't complain about Crimea as they have Gitmo.

US can't be wrong. : some stupid people said.

 

[w1z4rd]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-13/ron-paul-putins-crimea-invasion-has-law-its-side
USA can't complain about Crimea as they have Gitmo.

This is about the people of Ukraine.

 

[Space_Chief]

This is about the people of Ukraine.

If Ukrainians in Crimea want to split away, that's OK. If Kosovars were allowed to secede, than so should these people.

Also the idea that a referendum will be bunk because of Russian forces nearby is false. We had those in Eastern Europe at the time that Russia could have re-invaded in 1989-90s. It was not known at the time that the Russians agreed not to retake Eastern Europe by force if those countries decided to secede from the Wasaw Pact/Eastern Bloc. If referendum is fair and free, Crimea should be able to secede.

 

[Unhappy438]

SA -> yes
China -> Never

source please if you say "yes, China did."

Plenty sources, you just need to learn how to use google.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-15983302
http://www.ibtimes.com/iranian-sanc...-while-ongoing-negotiations-geneva-cause-rift
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/29/us-usa-iran-waivers-idUSBRE9AS0QM20131129

 

[Unhappy438]

If referendum is fair and free, Crimea should be able to secede.

The whole of Ukraine needs to agree to the referendum for it to be legal. Also the dates implemented for this referendum are absurd. Finally there is no option to vote to remain with Ukraine, the referendum is bogus.

 

[Unhappy438]

Trying to get confirmation but it seems Russian troops are starting to invade mainland Ukraine.

Edit: Here is a source http://www.unian.net/politics/896845-v-hersonskoy-oblasti-vyisadilsya-rossiyskiy-desant.html

Point on map

 

[Dave]

Trying to get confirmation but it seems Russian troops are starting to invade mainland Ukraine.

Nothing on any mainstream news site.

 

[Space_Chief]

The whole of Ukraine needs to agree to the referendum for it to be legal. Also the dates implemented for this referendum are absurd. Finally there is no option to vote to remain with Ukraine, the referendum is bogus.

Quite obviously the whole of Ukraine does not need to agree to such a referendum to be "legal". Obviously Serbia did not agree for Kosovo secession. As Ron Paul said, self-determination is a fundamental principle and if the majority in an area wants to split away and gain self determination, they have that right.

 

[Unhappy438]

Nothing on any mainstream news site.

Yeah they are slow.

Quite obviously the whole of Ukraine does not need to agree to such a referendum to be "legal". Obviously Serbia did not agree for Kosovo secession. As Ron Paul said, self-determination is a fundamental principle and if the majority in an area wants to split away and gain self determination, they have that right.

Quite obviously you're not in touch with Ukrainian constitution.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/14/crimean-referendum-illegal-international-law

Great job on addressing my other points by the way.

 

[Space_Chief]

Yeah they are slow.



Quite obviously you're not in touch with Ukrainian constitution.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/14/crimean-referendum-illegal-international-law

Great job on addressing my other points by the way.

Is that your rationale?

The constitution is not the be-all and end all. It's just a piece of paper, and without support of the people of the country it is a worthless piece of paper. It does not supersede the wish of the majority of the people. Ask the USA when they split from the British Empire if the law of Great Britain at that time allowed for secession. And as said Kosovo separation resulted in a war where NATO killed over 1,000 civilians. So seems like a double standard to me.

You haven't made any valid points. If the referendum is free and fair, the area should be allowed to separate. Next you'll tell me that persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany was legal because their constitution or law said so. Nuremberg trials disagreed.

 

[Unhappy438]

You haven't made any valid points. If the referendum is free and fair, the area should be allowed to separate. Next you'll tell me that persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany was legal because their constitution or law said so. Nuremberg trials disagreed.

I have made valid points you need to read, no option to vote to stay with Ukraine and the time frame. Russia has also denied OSCE monitors entry into Crimea three times, free and fair referendum my arse. Good thing the vast majority of the world wont recognise the outcome of this referendum.

 

[Space_Chief]

I have made valid points you need to read, no option to vote to stay with Ukraine and the time frame. Russia has also denied OSCE monitors entry into Crimea three times, free and fair referendum my arse. Good thing the vast majority of the world wont recognise the outcome of this referendum.

Most people in the world will agree that ordinary people should have the power to decide their future. If they choose to go with Russia, so be it. If they choose to stay with Ukraine, so be it. If you frame the question this way, most people will support the Ukrainians and the Crimean Ukrainians. Now the governments are a different affair and obviously there are other geopolitical issues at play with populations often having little or no say or they're completely disinterested. And of course this is provisioned on whether the referendum is free and fair, so if it's not, it won't be a valid representation of the opinion of the people of that region. But then again Serbia did not want to secede Kosovo and GB did not want to give the fledgeling US self determination either.

 

[Unhappy438]

BREAKING NEWS: Ukrainian military repels attempt by Russian forces to enter region adjacent to Crimea: Ukraine's defence ministry

http://www.reuters.com/

 

[MattyW]

Is that your rationale?

The constitution is not the be-all and end all. It's just a piece of paper, and without support of the people of the country it is a worthless piece of paper. It does not supersede the wish of the majority of the people. Ask the USA when they split from the British Empire if the law of Great Britain at that time allowed for secession. And as said Kosovo separation resulted in a war where NATO killed over 1,000 civilians. So seems like a double standard to me.

You haven't made any valid points. If the referendum is free and fair, the area should be allowed to separate. Next you'll tell me that persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany was legal because their constitution or law said so. Nuremberg trials disagreed.

How can the referendum be free and fair when...

1. International monitors have been disallowed from observing to make sure its free and fair.
2. They are occupied by a foreign military that has an interest in seeing the referendum go a particular way.
3. The referendum leaves no option to remain a part of the Ukraine, it's basically leave Ukraine and join Russia or just leave Ukraine what about all the people who want to remain a part of the Ukraine.
4. This region is not a representation of everyone, if you went to a place like Oranje?? I am sure a referendum to break away from South Africa may succeed but that doesn't mean it should be allowed.