Crisis in Ukraine

[LazyLion]

Most people in the world will agree that ordinary people should have the power to decide their future. If they choose to go with Russia, so be it. If they choose to stay with Ukraine, so be it. If you frame the question this way, most people will support the Ukrainians and the Crimean Ukrainians. Now the governments are a different affair and obviously there are other geopolitical issues at play with populations often having little or no say or they're completely disinterested. And of course this is provisioned on whether the referendum is free and fair, so if it's not, it won't be a valid representation of the opinion of the people of that region. But then again Serbia did not want to secede Kosovo and GB did not want to give the fledgeling US self determination either.

So we should just allow the Khoisan, Zulu, Xhosa and other tribal people in SA to secede if they want? What about the Afrikaans people? What about the Western Cape?
And in each case we should allow them to just carve out whatever chunk of South African they believe is theirs, no matter which other nationalities are also living there?
Your rationale for secession is stupid and poorly though through. If every national group in the world suddenly decided to secede it will be an utter disaster and war will rage for years to come.

 

[Unhappy438]

Most people in the world will agree that ordinary people should have the power to decide their future. If they choose to go with Russia, so be it. If they choose to stay with Ukraine, so be it.

Lol are you not reading my replies at all, they cant choose to stay with Ukraine, there is no option to vote for that.

And of course this is provisioned on whether the referendum is free and fair, so if it's not, it won't be a valid representation of the opinion of the people of that region. But then again Serbia did not want to secede Kosovo and GB did not want to give the fledgeling US self determination either.

You would think that if the referendum was to be free and fair then Russia would have allowed the OSCE entry to Crimea and they wouldn't be kidnapping, beating up and destroying journalists equipment.

 

[Space_Chief]

So we should just allow the Khoisan, Zulu, Xhosa and other tribal people in SA to secede if they want? What about the Afrikaans people? What about the Western Cape?
And in each case we should allow them to just carve out whatever chunk of South African they believe is theirs, no matter which other nationalities are also living there?
Your rationale for secession is stupid and poorly though through. If every national group in the world suddenly decided to secede it will be an utter disaster and war will rage for years to come.

Yeah, if these people want to secede maybe they should be given the opportunity for a referendum. I doubt they want to though as there are no strong secession movements in SA or such feelings on the ground among people. It's not on the table. And it's unlikely that that would lead to war. It does not follow at all. Before you accuse others of poorly thought out reasons, look at your own counterarguments which are not borne out in reality but fantasy. And a slippery slope fallacy too.

The precedent has been set at Kosovo already. It was supported by most Western democracies and so is hardly stupid, Gary.

 

[Space_Chief]

Lol are you not reading my replies at all, they cant choose to stay with Ukraine, there is no option to vote for that.

Choice 2: Are you in favor of restoring the 1992 Constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?

What's wrong with this choice?

You would think that if the referendum was to be free and fair then Russia would have allowed the OSCE entry to Crimea and they wouldn't be kidnapping, beating up and destroying journalists equipment.

What makes the OSCE an objective party here? Why particularly the OSCE?

 

[MattyW]

What's wrong with this choice?

As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread...

The two choices are:
"Do you support joining Crimea with the Russian Federation as a subject of Russia?"

"Do you support restoration of the 1992 Crimean constitution, and Crimea's status as part of Ukraine?

This second option is somewhat contradictory: the 1992 constitution asserts Crimea is an independent state and not part of Ukraine (reference to autonomy within Ukraine was inserted at a later date). So by "supporting the restoration of the 1992 constitution" voters will actually support enhanced autonomy. No matter what, voters are ticking a box for independence from Ukraine.

What makes the OSCE an objective party here? Why particularly the OSCE?

As opposed to what the Russian army who are illegally occupying the territory.

 

[Space_Chief]

As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread...

Enhanced autonomy but not complete secession. That can still be worked at later and further referendums can occur. Maybe the choices are a little off for South Africans but for people who live in that area and know their own history maybe they're not that off.

As opposed to what the Russian army who are illegally occupying the territory.

The Russians have the right to keep a certain amount of troops there to secure their installations. Is Guantanamo Bay also an invasion?

That still does not make the OSCE objective especially as many member states are opposed to the referendum, Crimean secession and so on.

You know maybe the pro-Nationalist movement should have played their game better. Instead of forcing out their president, maybe a more legal approach from scratch should have been implemented.

 

[Dave]

BREAKING NEWS: Ukrainian military repels attempt by Russian forces to enter region adjacent to Crimea: Ukraine's defence ministry

http://www.reuters.com/

Where?

There is no such story showing at your link, do you have a direct link to the story?

 

[Space_Chief]

Russians say they intercepted a US drone over Crimea.
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-says-intercepted-us-drone-over-crimea-arms-180430584.html

 

[Unhappy438]

Where?

It was a breaking headline on reuters homepage

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Worl...repels-attempted-Russian-incursion--Ministry/

Russians say they intercepted a US drone over Crimea.
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-says-intercepted-us-drone-over-crimea-arms-180430584.html

Been debunked due to the range of that drone.

 

[Unhappy438]

What makes the OSCE an objective party here? Why particularly the OSCE?

What makes Russia and Russian troops an objective party? If Russia had nothing to hide then OSCE should be allowed entry. Also why all the shenanigans against journalists.

 

[Space_Chief]

What makes Russia and Russian troops an objective party? If Russia had nothing to hide then OSCE should be allowed entry. Also why all the shenanigans against journalists.

We know that both sides have been perpetrating shenanigans. Of course I agree that neutral parties should observe. Who?
The Swiss? Brazilians? Maybe even South Africans?

 

[Unhappy438]

We know that both sides have been perpetrating shenanigans. Of course I agree that neutral parties should observe. Who?
The Swiss? Brazilians? Maybe even South Africans?

Swiss are members of the OSCE , Russia arent waiting for any neutral parties and are not even contemplating discussing that. They are going to rush this pathetic referendum of theirs.

 

[Space_Chief]

Swiss are members of the OSCE , Russia arent waiting for any neutral parties and are not even contemplating discussing that. They are going to rush this pathetic referendum of theirs.

Sure but OSCE comprises also countries like UK, US, Germany and Poland which are probably not very objective at present.

From my personal POV, I'd be happy if Ukraine was a full NATO member with a strong anti-Russian military. But I've set my own feelings aside on this.

 

[Unhappy438]

BREAKING: UN Security Council just considered Resolution on Ukraine, which Russia vetoed. Russia was the only no vote

 

[MattyW]

Enhanced autonomy but not complete secession. That can still be worked at later and further referendums can occur. Maybe the choices are a little off for South Africans but for people who live in that area and know their own history maybe they're not that off.



The Russians have the right to keep a certain amount of troops there to secure their installations. Is Guantanamo Bay also an invasion?

That still does not make the OSCE objective especially as many member states are opposed to the referendum, Crimean secession and so on.

You know maybe the pro-Nationalist movement should have played their game better. Instead of forcing out their president, maybe a more legal approach from scratch should have been implemented.

The situations are hardly comparable and while Guantanamo Bay may certainly be an invasion {the Cubans claim it is} what would be comparable is if the American military moved into the province and then while under the threat of force offered the province two choices either join the United States or form an iindependent state completely ignoring the people who want to remain part of Cuba {not that there would be many}.

 

[Unhappy438]

Video of that Kherson incident

[video=youtube;hXzr8LsSsOY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hXzr8LsSsOY[/video]

 

[Space_Chief]

The situations are hardly comparable and while Guantanamo Bay may certainly be an invasion {the Cubans claim it is} what would be comparable is if the American military moved into the province and then while under the threat of force offered the province two choices either join the United States or form an iindependent state completely ignoring the people who want to remain part of Cuba {not that there would be many}.

The referendum is originating with the civilian legislature of that region and not the Russian military though. And it's not like the Cubans want the Yanks there.

Look, there are a lot of Russians in that part of Ukraine, similar to the case of Donetsk. If these people suddenly want to do what their brethren did in Kiev, who can blame them? I certainly can't.

 

[Unhappy438]

Look, there are a lot of Russians in that part of Ukraine, similar to the case of Donetsk. If these people suddenly want to do what their brethren did Kiev, who can blame them? I certainly can't.

Nobody, the issue isnt with the possibility of Crimea wanting to break away from Ukraine. Its with the very likely possibility that the referendum is rigged etc.

 

[Jola]

The Russians have the right to keep a certain amount of troops there to secure their installations. Is Guantanamo Bay also an invasion?

So according to your logic the USA can have troops in Cuba outside Guantanamo ? That would be the same as what the Russians are doing.

 

[Space_Chief]

So according to your logic the USA can have troops in Cuba outside Guantanamo ? That would be the same as what the Russians are doing.

Except that there is a democratic ground level movement in that region which wants to join Russia. There are ethnic Russians in Crimea, lots of them. There are no American civilians in Cuba. But even that is not relevant. What's relevant is that the West wants to have Kosovo and Guantanamo while denying Russia Crimea and the people there the right to secede if they so wish.