Crypto earnings & Capital Gains Tax

Sensorei

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It would be really silly cashing out more than a couple of BTC in Rand after hodling for years. There are other ways... Half of the point of crypto is that it's borderless, anonymous, and nobody can take it from you without your private key.
 

Snyper564

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Oct 1, 2008
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It would be really silly cashing out more than a couple of BTC in Rand after hodling for years. There are other ways... Half of the point of crypto is that it's borderless, anonymous, and nobody can take it from you without your private key.
Call it what you may but it's evasion if not declared properly...
 

Moto Guzzi

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Apr 24, 2004
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I'm going to wait until some cryptocurrency becomes more mainstream so that I can use it directly for payments. Better than getting involved with tax issues now.

Edit: Those that bought at R300k and cashed out at R200k. If SARS taxes gains then these people should also be able to reduce their taxable income with the losses. So SARS will need to pay up.

Capital is linked to monetary money applications:The bitcoin(Digital) pool(Abstract)=Its a picture in your mind.

You go to bitcoin with what, monetary money you dive in, ....then abstractly in your mind you "own" bitcoin.....then you sell the bitcoin and get monetary money back either more or less. If less who took it, if more from who did you took monetary money-? After all you want to increase your monetary money without doing a days job, thats really what you want to do.

Well how can crypto be capital, its abstractly riding on the back of money, if you want to buy, you use monetary money, then if you sell you get monetary money back, so you back where you came from.

Now if SARS can link crypto to monetary money properly, taken into account nothing actually constructive happened in the pool(Abstract) since you dived in and got out, now how do you get out, if more, it must be from somebody elses money in reality......Now I would like to see how SARS do this complete calculation and keep track from the whole scene A-Z(Through bitcoin)-? I think its going to be a can of worms.
 

HavocXphere

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Starting to realise this is gonna be an admin nightmare of note.

Even just the part about mining coins. Under UK laws I'd need to do income tax on the mining part, and capital gains on subsequent holding. But because it's mined & drips in...every single bit received will be at different prices on both fronts. Meaning spreadsheets galore to track basically each individual coin. FML
 

Wary GOM

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Capital is linked to monetary money applications:The bitcoin(Digital) pool(Abstract)=Its a picture in your mind.

You go to bitcoin with what, monetary money you dive in, ....then abstractly in your mind you "own" bitcoin.....then you sell the bitcoin and get monetary money back either more or less. If less who took it, if more from who did you took monetary money-? After all you want to increase your monetary money without doing a days job, thats really what you want to do.

Well how can crypto be capital, its abstractly riding on the back of money, if you want to buy, you use monetary money, then if you sell you get monetary money back, so you back where you came from.

Now if SARS can link crypto to monetary money properly, taken into account nothing actually constructive happened in the pool(Abstract) since you dived in and got out, now how do you get out, if more, it must be from somebody elses money in reality......Now I would like to see how SARS do this complete calculation and keep track from the whole scene A-Z(Through bitcoin)-? I think its going to be a can of worms.
Certainly a can of worms when seen like this. I definitely don't have an answer, more of some observations on which I hope to get some feedback.. [A disclaimer: I am completely untrained in finance, law or taxes. Doing my own taxes is an annual bellyache for me.]

Isn't it going to come down to how you invested and for what period? Taking Mirror Trading International as a specific example, "investors" were depositing crypto into a CIS, so any growth or loss was in terms of the investment, i.e. bitcoin. As I understand it, profit or loss would then be in bitcoin until converted (i.e. banked) as monetary money at which point SARS would calculate applicable tax in ZAR. Carrying this further, PRESUMABLY, if left in the MTI pool as btc, it doesn't attract tax at all- just like the cattle that are part of an agricultural CIS where cattle are "deposited" with a fattening operation until sold.

IMO, investing personally in crypto would categorise it (at least as currently defined) as a security - i.e. like an equity.
 

Moto Guzzi

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Certainly a can of worms when seen like this. I definitely don't have an answer, more of some observations on which I hope to get some feedback.. [A disclaimer: I am completely untrained in finance, law or taxes. Doing my own taxes is an annual bellyache for me.]

Isn't it going to come down to how you invested and for what period? Taking Mirror Trading International as a specific example, "investors" were depositing crypto into a CIS, so any growth or loss was in terms of the investment, i.e. bitcoin. As I understand it, profit or loss would then be in bitcoin until converted (i.e. banked) as monetary money at which point SARS would calculate applicable tax in ZAR. Carrying this further, PRESUMABLY, if left in the MTI pool as btc, it doesn't attract tax at all- just like the cattle that are part of an agricultural CIS where cattle are "deposited" with a fattening operation until sold.

IMO, investing personally in crypto would categorise it (at least as currently defined) as a security - i.e. like an equity.


You must differenciate between the road a certain ideology is taking you, and the knowledge presented too you to do that. The detailed knowledge can draw you down in a hole preventing you from seeing the bigger picture ahead in terms of motive, common sense, sustainablility in future, ease of use, not loading monetary systems etc. One can easily argue past each other if you not on the same road but using a similar car so to speak.
So SARS has to understand the road direction, and the detailed knowledge making it run to keep track.
 

Saidar

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Mar 25, 2005
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Articles like this is realy scaring me:


I've been very active in crypto the last 12 months. It's utter madness with 5+ different exchanges, hundreds of trades, 20+ wallets. How on earth am I going to please the taxman with this situation? Do anyone know of a proper crypto tax consultant that can assist to minimize tax without attracting an audit and them ruining your life ?
 

SauRoNZA

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Articles like this is realy scaring me:


I've been very active in crypto the last 12 months. It's utter madness with 5+ different exchanges, hundreds of trades, 20+ wallets. How on earth am I going to please the taxman with this situation? Do anyone know of a proper crypto tax consultant that can assist to minimize tax without attracting an audit and them ruining your life ?

I say attract the audit.

Then let them do the work for you. ;)
 

Saidar

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Mar 25, 2005
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I say attract the audit.

Then let them do the work for you. ;)
Haha that is one of way of looking at it. The problem is the penalties they will give you if they discover you have not declared everything.

One interesting topic is when are profits gained? Are crypto to crypto trades seen as gains or only once you convert to fiat ?
 

SauRoNZA

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Haha that is one of way of looking at it. The problem is the penalties they will give you if they discover you have not declared everything.

One interesting topic is when are profits gained? Are crypto to crypto trades seen as gains or only once you convert to fiat ?

Any conversion of any kind.

They would make their own lives and everyone else’s easier if it was only ever at base ZAR conversion time.
 

Saidar

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Mar 25, 2005
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Any conversion of any kind.

They would make their own lives and everyone else’s easier if it was only ever at base ZAR conversion time.
That sucks. Are there any laws that support this or is it their opinion on the matter? For me personally this will make a massive difference in both complexity and income/capital gains.

Have anyone here been audited ? Would be good to know the level of detail to go into. Do they access all of your exchanges and private wallets and everythig ? How does it work ?
 

bromster

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Nov 2, 2012
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That's why i think Decentralised Exchanges will really take off soon. Just an additional guard.
 

Saidar

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Mar 25, 2005
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That's why i think Decentralised Exchanges will really take off soon. Just an additional guard.
Problem is at some point you need to convert to fiat and then they will know exactly what you've been up to. No way to hide it long term
 

HavocXphere

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Oct 19, 2007
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Just tried to rec address history to total in wallet back in Excel in preparation for tax year. Out by 4k.

i.e. The total of all transactions added up is less than wallet balance.

Might need to pull the data straight out of a node database to figure this out :(

That sucks. Are there any laws that support this or is it their opinion on the matter?
Its pretty certain unfortunately. If you dig back in this thread there was a big debate about it
 
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