De Ruyter and Mantashe at war

[wingnut771]

I never thought I would say this, but I agree with Mantashe, although probably for different reasons.

I suspect he is just trying to protect all the BBEE/Gupta coal deals and companies, but am only guessing on that front.

But the fact of the matter is we are blessed with plenty of cheap coal. And we have an economy killing shortage of electricity. And there are only two practical ways of providing reliable base load to ANY country - fossil fuels or nuclear.

So if you want affordable, reliable, stable electricity in South Africa, we need to build a lot more coal power stations. There is no way around that conclusion IMO.

BUT..

What we cannot afford is more BBEE/patronage/Gupta coal companies ripping up the country and leaving nothing but a mess behind.

Nor can we afford more BBEE built power stations that cost 5-6 times the price and then fall apart the day before they are switched on.

So you don't agree with Gweezy then?

 

[Oldfut]

I never thought I would say this, but I agree with Mantashe, although probably for different reasons.

I suspect he is just trying to protect all the BBEE/Gupta coal deals and companies, but am only guessing on that front.

But the fact of the matter is we are blessed with plenty of cheap coal. And we have an economy killing shortage of electricity. And there are only two practical ways of providing reliable base load to ANY country - fossil fuels or nuclear.

So if you want affordable, reliable, stable electricity in South Africa, we need to build a lot more coal power stations. There is no way around that conclusion IMO.

BUT..

What we cannot afford is more BBEE/patronage/Gupta coal companies ripping up the country and leaving nothing but a mess behind.

Nor can we afford more BBEE built power stations that cost 5-6 times the price and then fall apart the day before they are switched on.

I sense that this "cheap coal" is somewhat of a myth as it is (or much of it is) also poor quality coal - read all about the boiler cock up in the new power stations. The best coal gets exported at a rate of knots, much of it now by entreprenurs who happen to be black. Supply to Eskom is a bit more murky as I see it with some tied mines having a Gupta issue, some by trucking from yet more "entrepreneurs", some by rail which also has a bit of history, others depleted, some same outfits as export coal now. A clearer picture would be interesting.

 

[ToxicBunny]

I never thought I would say this, but I agree with Mantashe, although probably for different reasons.

I suspect he is just trying to protect all the BBEE/Gupta coal deals and companies, but am only guessing on that front.

But the fact of the matter is we are blessed with plenty of cheap coal. And we have an economy killing shortage of electricity. And there are only two practical ways of providing reliable base load to ANY country - fossil fuels or nuclear.

So if you want affordable, reliable, stable electricity in South Africa, we need to build a lot more coal power stations. There is no way around that conclusion IMO.

BUT..

What we cannot afford is more BBEE/patronage/Gupta coal companies ripping up the country and leaving nothing but a mess behind.

Nor can we afford more BBEE built power stations that cost 5-6 times the price and then fall apart the day before they are switched on.

So no, the only practical ways of providing reliable baseload are not fossil fuels or nuclear, there are a myriad of options, Coal and Nuclear stations do provide the closest match between "Generation Capacity" and Generation requirements, in so much as a 3000MW Coal plant can "reliably" be expected to provide 2100MW to the grid (in a very simplified example), whereas things like CSP and Wind require much larger generation capacity numbers to get to a minimum baseline of power they can reliably be expected to provide to the grid.

But as for the coal stuff, coal may be "cheap" but on an on going basis coal is no longer the cheapest form of power anymore, not by a long shot.

 

[TheChamp]

I never thought I would say this, but I agree with Mantashe, although probably for different reasons.

I suspect he is just trying to protect all the BBEE/Gupta coal deals and companies, but am only guessing on that front.

But the fact of the matter is we are blessed with plenty of cheap coal. And we have an economy killing shortage of electricity. And there are only two practical ways of providing reliable base load to ANY country - fossil fuels or nuclear.

So if you want affordable, reliable, stable electricity in South Africa, we need to build a lot more coal power stations. There is no way around that conclusion IMO.

BUT..

What we cannot afford is more BBEE/patronage/Gupta coal companies ripping up the country and leaving nothing but a mess behind.

Nor can we afford more BBEE built power stations that cost 5-6 times the price and then fall apart the day before they are switched on.

Why would he protect Gupta deal? And what makes you think the renewable deals won't be BEE deals?

Mantashe's is a unionist and just like the others a radical shift from coal to renewables represents job losses to him.

 

[The Darkness]

The 'cheapest' way to fix the power issue is/was to allow IPP's into the market. This should have been done 5 years ago, then we wouldn't be in this mess.

 

[alanB]

So no, the only practical ways of providing reliable baseload are not fossil fuels or nuclear, there are a myriad of options, Coal and Nuclear stations do provide the closest match between "Generation Capacity" and Generation requirements, in so much as a 3000MW Coal plant can "reliably" be expected to provide 2100MW to the grid (in a very simplified example), whereas things like CSP and Wind require much larger generation capacity numbers to get to a minimum baseline of power they can reliably be expected to provide to the grid.

But as for the coal stuff, coal may be "cheap" but on an on going basis coal is no longer the cheapest form of power anymore, not by a long shot.

Sorry this is plain incorrect.

You CANNOT get any form of baseload from a source you have no control over (which thus excludes virtually all renewables) - it's as simple as that.

The power consumption from the grid needs to be exactly balanced with generation, second by second on the grid.

If you do not have any control over an energy source then you cannot use it as base load. IN FACT that is the ENTIRE reason for the need for baseload - that you have a completely dependable source of power you can fall back on, second by second, when the wind stops blowing, or a cloud comes out over a solar installion.

Stop swallowing what the media feed you and start thinking for yourself. Also start asking yourself what is the money flow going to look like in the "new green world" we are told is so imperative now, who are the people telling us it's so necessary, how do they stand to benefit?

 

[ToxicBunny]

Sorry this is plain incorrect.

You CANNOT get any form of baseload from a source you have no control over (which thus excludes virtually all renewables) - it's as simple as that.

The power consumption from the grid needs to be exactly balanced with generation, second by second on the grid.

If you do not have any control over an energy source then you cannot use it as base load. IN FACT that is the ENTIRE reason for the need for baseload - that you have a completely dependable source of power you can fall back on, second by second, when the wind stops blowing, or a cloud comes out over a solar installion.

Stop swallowing what the media feed you and start thinking for yourself. Also start asking yourself what is the money flow going to look like in the "new green world" we are told is so imperative now, who are the people telling us it's so necessary, how do they stand to benefit?

You actually can.... But hey each to their own in terms of understanding the complexities of a grid and all that.

 

[wingnut771]

Sorry this is plain incorrect.

You CANNOT get any form of baseload from a source you have no control over (which thus excludes virtually all renewables) - it's as simple as that.

The power consumption from the grid needs to be exactly balanced with generation, second by second on the grid.

If you do not have any control over an energy source then you cannot use it as base load. IN FACT that is the ENTIRE reason for the need for baseload - that you have a completely dependable source of power you can fall back on, second by second, when the wind stops blowing, or a cloud comes out over a solar installion.

Stop swallowing what the media feed you and start thinking for yourself. Also start asking yourself what is the money flow going to look like in the "new green world" we are told is so imperative now, who are the people telling us it's so necessary, how do they stand to benefit?

It's called energy storage.

 

[wingnut771]

Sorry this is plain incorrect.

You CANNOT get any form of baseload from a source you have no control over (which thus excludes virtually all renewables) - it's as simple as that.

The power consumption from the grid needs to be exactly balanced with generation, second by second on the grid.

If you do not have any control over an energy source then you cannot use it as base load. IN FACT that is the ENTIRE reason for the need for baseload - that you have a completely dependable source of power you can fall back on, second by second, when the wind stops blowing, or a cloud comes out over a solar installion.

Stop swallowing what the media feed you and start thinking for yourself. Also start asking yourself what is the money flow going to look like in the "new green world" we are told is so imperative now, who are the people telling us it's so necessary, how do they stand to benefit?

Rooftop solar helps send South Australia grid to zero demand in world first

South Australia on Sunday became the first gigawatt scale grid in the world to reach zero demand when the combined output of rooftop solar and other small non-scheduled generators exceeded all the local customer load requirements. The landmark event was observed by several energy analysts...

mybroadband.co.za

 

[alanB]

It's called energy storage.

Sorry liked your post by mistake - so just ignore that.

I don't suppose you have any idea how much storage is necessary, and how expensive that is?

Or are you going to fall for Elon Musk's massively expensive battery, which has very limited lifespan, before needing replacement and only provides an hour or two's backup. He makes a lot of money selling those to gullible politicians IMO. Elon's not the stupid one in that equation.

Nor have you perhaps thought about, that when the renewable power comes back (wind starts blowing again etc) from what ever source you now need to be able to meet the needs of the consumption AND replace the stored energy - so you need essentially twice the energy generation at that point, from a country that doesnt have enough generation virtually every day?

Again, stop swallowing what the media feed you, Journalists just chase all the latest moral fashions. They have actual no idea what they are talking about. They just repeat the talking points they are told to, or feel are trendy.

There is no getting away from the need for stable, low cost base load, you cannot wave it away, and use "positive thinking" to replace that.

The alternative is - if you really want to "save the planet" - is just stop consuming power - adopt an Amish lifestyle. That will definitely yield results. Just toss all your electric appliances, and ride a horse - problem solved.

But most people want to consume MORE power, while virtue signalling how much they care for the planet. And then let the media tell them pleasant lies about that- to reconcile the internal dissonance.

 

[The_Librarian]

Must be just you..

I struggle to see how this
View attachment 1199038

Could participate in any strenuous activity beyond eating and plotting how to fsck the countries future.

Mother of all status symbols...

 

[mojoman]

Must be just you..

I struggle to see how this
View attachment 1199038

Could participate in any strenuous activity beyond eating and plotting how to fsck the countries future.

What a fat twat.....
(I bet he doesnt even leave the KFC bones!)

 

[Swa]

But the fact of the matter is we are blessed with plenty of cheap coal. And we have an economy killing shortage of electricity. And there are only two practical ways of providing reliable base load to ANY country - fossil fuels or nuclear.

Not exactly.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Sorry liked your post by mistake - so just ignore that.

I don't suppose you have any idea how much storage is necessary, and how expensive that is?

Or are you going to fall for Elon Musk's massively expensive battery, which has very limited lifespan, before needing replacement and only provides an hour or two's backup. He makes a lot of money selling those to gullible politicians IMO. Elon's not the stupid one in that equation.

Nor have you perhaps thought about, that when the renewable power comes back (wind starts blowing again etc) from what ever source you now need to be able to meet the needs of the consumption AND replace the stored energy - so you need essentially twice the energy generation at that point, from a country that doesnt have enough generation virtually every day?

Again, stop swallowing what the media feed you, Journalists just chase all the latest moral fashions. They have actual no idea what they are talking about. They just repeat the talking points they are told to, or feel are trendy.

There is no getting away from the need for stable, low cost base load, you cannot wave it away, and use "positive thinking" to replace that.

The alternative is - if you really want to "save the planet" - is just stop consuming power - adopt an Amish lifestyle. That will definitely yield results. Just toss all your electric appliances, and ride a horse - problem solved.

But most people want to consume MORE power, while virtue signalling how much they care for the planet. And then let the media tell them pleasant lies about that- to reconcile the internal dissonance.

Ok, since you seem to be incredibly passionate about this, and most of us are just laymen really, what is your experience in the field?

 

[Swa]

Sorry liked your post by mistake - so just ignore that.

I don't suppose you have any idea how much storage is necessary, and how expensive that is?

Or are you going to fall for Elon Musk's massively expensive battery, which has very limited lifespan, before needing replacement and only provides an hour or two's backup. He makes a lot of money selling those to gullible politicians IMO. Elon's not the stupid one in that equation.

Nor have you perhaps thought about, that when the renewable power comes back (wind starts blowing again etc) from what ever source you now need to be able to meet the needs of the consumption AND replace the stored energy - so you need essentially twice the energy generation at that point, from a country that doesnt have enough generation virtually every day?

Again, stop swallowing what the media feed you, Journalists just chase all the latest moral fashions. They have actual no idea what they are talking about. They just repeat the talking points they are told to, or feel are trendy.

There is no getting away from the need for stable, low cost base load, you cannot wave it away, and use "positive thinking" to replace that.

The alternative is - if you really want to "save the planet" - is just stop consuming power - adopt an Amish lifestyle. That will definitely yield results. Just toss all your electric appliances, and ride a horse - problem solved.

But most people want to consume MORE power, while virtue signalling how much they care for the planet. And then let the media tell them pleasant lies about that- to reconcile the internal dissonance.

You know you can unlike a post...

Anyways a lot of what you posted is outdated. Coal and nuclear are no longer reliable cheap options. Renewables can be provisioned by a factor where the concerns no longer matter. But I digress, we won't be rid of coal anyway for the next 30 years in which time a lot would have changed.

 

[Ferog]

Put them in a children's play pool filled with oil and speedos and let them battle it out.

SABC has sole broadcasting rights (pay your TV licence) and schedule with Eskom not to have load shedding when it airs.

It can be called Power Struggle, whoever wins gets to urinate on the other as a sign of dominance and decide our national renewable strategy.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Put them in a children's play pool filled with oil and speedos and let them battle it out.

SABC has sole broadcasting rights (pay your TV licence) and schedule with Eskom not to have load shedding when it airs.

It can be called Power Struggle, whoever wins gets to urinate on the other as a sign of dominance and decide our national renewable strategy.

Problem is Uncle Gweezy will just sit on Andre and win... it wouldn't be a fair fight.

 

[zolly]

The alternative is - if you really want to "save the planet" - is just stop consuming power

Most people are very wasteful with electricity. Moved from a flat to a house recently and expected our energy consumption to go up. The weird thing is that even though we (it's two of us) have so much more space, our energy consumption has barely moved an inch.

We have a solar geyser to reduce the major energy cost, and otherwise we have a TV, LED lights, an old fridge that is not at all up to scratch compared to more modern fridges when it comes to energy consumption, networking hardware, a coffee machine, microwave and a few other bits and bobs. Two of us use R600 pm during summer (which is about 250 units according to CT's current rates), which goes up to R900-R1200 during winter (so a max of 500 units if we really need heating). If you work that out per person, that's 125-250 units depending on the time of year, which I don't consider at all excessive, and hasn't changed at all for years (even if the price has gone up).

When I hear about the bills some people have, I just wonder what the hell they have going on in their homes.

 

[wingnut771]

Sorry liked your post by mistake - so just ignore that.

I don't suppose you have any idea how much storage is necessary, and how expensive that is?

Or are you going to fall for Elon Musk's massively expensive battery, which has very limited lifespan, before needing replacement and only provides an hour or two's backup. He makes a lot of money selling those to gullible politicians IMO. Elon's not the stupid one in that equation.

Nor have you perhaps thought about, that when the renewable power comes back (wind starts blowing again etc) from what ever source you now need to be able to meet the needs of the consumption AND replace the stored energy - so you need essentially twice the energy generation at that point, from a country that doesnt have enough generation virtually every day?

Again, stop swallowing what the media feed you, Journalists just chase all the latest moral fashions. They have actual no idea what they are talking about. They just repeat the talking points they are told to, or feel are trendy.

There is no getting away from the need for stable, low cost base load, you cannot wave it away, and use "positive thinking" to replace that.

The alternative is - if you really want to "save the planet" - is just stop consuming power - adopt an Amish lifestyle. That will definitely yield results. Just toss all your electric appliances, and ride a horse - problem solved.

But most people want to consume MORE power, while virtue signalling how much they care for the planet. And then let the media tell them pleasant lies about that- to reconcile the internal dissonance.

No, I have faith that the EV's of the future will act as the "storage" as a car is parked 90% of its life. EV owners can buy and sell power.

 

[wingnut771]

Most people are very wasteful with electricity. Moved from a flat to a house recently and expected our energy consumption to go up. The weird thing is that even though we (it's two of us) have so much more space, our energy consumption has barely moved an inch.

We have a solar geyser to reduce the major energy cost, and otherwise we have a TV, LED lights, an old fridge that is not at all up to scratch compared to more modern fridges when it comes to energy consumption, networking hardware, a coffee machine, microwave and a few other bits and bobs. Two of us use R600 pm during summer (which is about 250 units according to CT's current rates), which goes up to R900-R1200 during winter (so a max of 500 units if we really need heating). If you work that out per person, that's 125-250 units depending on the time of year, which I don't consider at all excessive, and hasn't changed at all for years (even if the price has gone up).

When I hear about the bills some people have, I just wonder what the hell they have going on in their homes.

Come try live in dbn without aircon, also keep the pool clean without running the pump.