Death Penalty. Yay or nay?

[surface]

I see two problems with this.

1. This is a USA document.
2. Secondly this is outdated 1997 ?

1. Yes, there is a different situation here but surely some points are worthwhile to consider in a global context.
2. Let us say constitution of SA is available on some website so published date on the document would be 1994, would that make that document outdated? I understand that there will be amendments but original document would be valid nonetheless.

 

[Kommedoor]

Bring back the death penalty!

I would rather be a killer than a victim.

 

[Chatmaster]

Nope, sorry, I do not trust the legal system in South Africa enough to support the death penalty. Besides, how can you look for solutions like this while the government are doing the wrong things first? What about our truly bad court system and police investigations system? There is just too many holes in the entire system to even dream of discussing the death sentence.

 

[Pitbull]

Nope, sorry, I do not trust the legal system in South Africa enough to support the death penalty. Besides, how can you look for solutions like this while the government are doing the wrong things first? What about our truly bad court system and police investigations system? There is just too many holes in the entire system to even dream of discussing the death sentence.

R u guilt of killing someone ?

If not why worry !

 

[surface]

Nope, sorry, I do not trust the legal system in South Africa enough to support the death penalty. Besides, how can you look for solutions like this while the government are doing the wrong things first? What about our truly bad court system and police investigations system? There is just too many holes in the entire system to even dream of discussing the death sentence.

Very interesting argument. Supposing SA didnt have 'life sentence' then would you not implement it for fear of too many holes in the system?

 

[nthdimension]

Prison should be a dreadful experience, not a rehabilitation centre

Prisons remain a great place to ensure that even first time offenders become career criminals.

It might even make those considering a life of crime think twice

What happens when we find it doesn't work that way?

I would rather be a killer than a victim.

And so you should executed? As a killer, and you would end up being responsible for someone being mistakenly executed, you should also be subjected to the death penalty.

I see two problems with this.

1. This is a USA document.
2. Secondly this is outdated 1997 ?

Yet you're unable to counter the arguments presented in the document.

If the police turn up at the scene of a violent crime, why the hell aren’t they allowed to shoot the bastards

There is a huge difference between killing someone to prevent an immediate danger of them killing someone else, i.e. when they are currently visibly threatening someone's safety, and killing them later based on unreliable evidence presented by unreliable prosecutors. I have no problem with an individual killing someone who is attacking them, threatening their personal safety. Even if you kill someone who was merely trying to steal your property it should fall on the state to prove that you intended to kill them rather than merely injure them to protect your property.

Too many people make the assumption that being accused of a crime is the same as having committed a crime. The police make mistakes, constantly - they ignore evidence that doesn't support their case against the person they're sure has committed the crime, they misinterpret evidence based on what they already believe. Forensic evidence is inherently unreliable. Eye-witnesses are even worse.

Supposing SA didnt have 'life sentence' then would you not implement it for fear of too many holes in the system?

You have a way to restore life after the state has killed the wrong person? Otherwise your argument is ridiculous.

 

[Chatmaster]

R u guilt of killing someone ?

If not why worry !

Not that simple! Evidence being manufactured from the investigators side (because they are convinced you are guilty) etc. I also remember a case of a guy that tossed a bottle out of his car window while driving around with friends. 19 Years later when he was a well respected person in the community, the police matched his finger prints after a breakin at his house with the bottle. He suddenly faced a murder case against him, after the bottle hit a pedestrian on his legs and cut him. The pedestrian bleed to death before getting to the hospital. The guy locked up for this murder the past 15 years was the pedestrian's buddy! This case was a complete flook for being discovered and wouldn't normally be found.

Our legal system imo is simply not stable or reliable enough to judge on people's rights to live or die.

 

[Pitbull]

Not that simple! Evidence being manufactured from the investigators side (because they are convinced you are guilty) etc. I have experienced some of this first hand years ago and know how easy it is for the police and NIA to "frame" people. I also remember a case of a guy that tossed a bottle out of his car window while driving around with friends. 19 Years later when he was a well respected person in the community, the police matched his finger prints after a breakin at his house with the bottle. He suddenly faced a murder case against him, after the bottle hit a pedestrian on his legs and cut him. The pedestrian bleed to death before getting to the hospital. The guy locked up for this murder the past 15 years was the pedestrian's buddy! This case was a complete flook for being discovered and wouldn't normally be found.

Our legal system imo is simply not stable or reliable enough to judge on people's rights to live or die.

On purpose or not... He caused the death of another person.

So your saying that that is a bit harsh ?

 

[Chatmaster]

I think my point is mainly this. No matter how angry we are about the current crime situation in the country, we need to ask ourselves this question.

Taking judgement on someone's life is a godly privilage. Only God knows if someone is truly guilty. We as humans have to follow the evidence. Do we know 100% if it is right or wrong? No because we are not God!

 

[Chatmaster]

Pitbull you missed the point that someone else sat in jail for 15 years for a crime he didn't commit! That was the point...

Rather ask yourself why the criminal law protects a criminal when breaking into a house or property than trying to get the death sentence implimented. I listened to a TV program one day, it was a while back but it had something to do with "your rights" or something stupid like that. So there was a couple of questions in the line of " What if a guy breaks into my house, ... can I shoot him? The answer always came through as [sarcasm] yes! Sure you can after he killed you or your loved ones!"[end sarcasm]

My question is this? Why on earth is the criminal's rights protected here? Why? Please I beg any person to tell me! Why? Yeeeezzzzzz If you access a property willingly, carying a dangerous weapon with you... Then you certainly must know that there is risk involved! WTF You made a deliberate decision to risk being killed. However the home owner,... had a right to be there. It is his property and that which he worked hard to get and to own. What rights should the criminal have? Regardless of why,... his intentions was to harm the people in some way, willingly! He had a choice...

 

[Pitbull]

Pitbull you missed the point that someone else sat in jail for 15 years for a crime he didn't commit! That was the point...

Rather ask yourself why the criminal law protects a criminal when breaking into a house or property than trying to get the death sentence implimented. I listened to a TV program one day, it was a while back but it had something to do with "your rights" or something stupid like that. So there was a couple of questions in the line of " What if a guy breaks into my house, ... can I shoot him? The answer always came through as [sarcasm] yes! Sure you can after he killed you or your loved ones!"[end sarcasm]

My question is this? Why on earth is the criminal's rights protected here? Why? Please I beg any person to tell me! Why? Yeeeezzzzzz If you access a property willingly, carying a dangerous weapon with you... Then you certainly must know that there is risk involved! WTF You made a deliberate decision to risk being killed. However the home owner,... had a right to be there. It is his property and that which he worked hard to get and to own. What rights should the criminal have? Regardless of why,... his intentions was to harm the people in some way, willingly! He had a choice...

I agree with you on your last point. Maybe take away the rights that the criminal/s have in that respect and then there will be no need for the death penalty as they'll be just with just cause and die anyway...

 

[noxibox]

Instead of wasting time on calls for the death penalty we should be fighting to get back our right to reasonable self-defense.

 

[Pitbull]

Instead of wasting time on calls for the death penalty we should be fighting to get back our right to reasonable self-defense.

I agree 100 % my perception has been changed by the previous post.

100 % spot on !

 

[Chatmaster]

Over the weekend me and a couple of my buddies from Nylstroom and Ellisras had a long chat about the crime in SA and how it is out of control. We compared it to the days we were in High school and the fact that we were out on the streets until late in the night. We also talked about how visible the police were back then compared to now. We couldn't drive without our lights on our bicycles or get pulled of by them every evening we did so. We simply couldn't take the chance. lol

I also remember when I was stationed at the police station we were not allowed back at the charge office if we were working the patrol bakkie. We had to do a specific amount of km's per shift else we had allot of explanation to do. There was very little crime to start with because the police were visible.

I really feel sorry for our kids as they are growing up in a society where they have to fear living. It is just unnatural the way they grow up these days! You learn not to trust anyone and get hurt anyway!

We as decent and law fearing citizens have more rights than the criminals, but still they get protected? Why are they allowed to hide their faces after being found guilty in court of rape or murder? We need to see the faces of these criminals and look at their eyes! We have a right to a normal life but are held captive by their rule? Government owes us more than them, but still they get more and more protection. They strike for better services in jail, for a better life in jail? Do they have the right? IMO they do not. They knew the day they made the decision to break the law, they made a willing decision to do so, and therefor society owes them nothing! Life is all about decisions. I am sure you are all familiar with the 90/10 principle? Why should 10% carry the suffering if 90% of the decision was made by the criminals themselves?

 

[Nokkie]

The number of murders and rapes in South Africa is digusting. Would introducing the death penalty be good for South Africa? Is is just barbaric?

Personally i think it should be introduced. At the moment so many innocent people are dying already! Why not get rid of the guilty people and scare others into not commiting crimes? There wont be as much over crowding in prisons as well!

The law is flawed and there is a chance that innocent people would be put to death. Look at this way, in 5 years, even if 10 innocent people are wrongly accused and put to death. It might save hundreds!? Shouldn't we be looking at the greater good?

if they were to bring death penalty back, what are we going to do about all the rapests and murderers bodies?

 

[Riq]

if they were to bring death penalty back, what are we going to do about all the rapests and murderers bodies?

donate them for medical research. It's a win-win situation.

 

[Nokkie]

lol

 

[Chatmaster]

Rofl

 

[Leitmotif]

Instead of wasting time on calls for the death penalty we should be fighting to get back our right to reasonable self-defense.

Damn straight.

 

[Nokkie]

maybe we can send them with a boat to the usa and they can roam them on to iraq for futher exploitation