Democratic Socialism debate.

konfab

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Since it looks like the main alternative to Donald Trump is a self-styled "Democratic Socialist", I thought it would be interesting to have a thread discussing what the "Democratic" part actually means, since the socialism seems to cause great confusion.

Does the Democratic part mean Democracy in the form of a liberal democracy where individual rights are held sacrosanct, or is it simply mean Democracy in the form of majoritarianism?
 

Prawnapple

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According to wiki, the end (long term) goal of DemSoc is socialism. However, I've read and heard many proponents of DemSoc say nothing of socialism being an end goal, but rather to keep democracy around indefinitely. What they do want is some social policies included into the country, they want Medicare for all and cheaper, if not free education. Free healthcare and education isn't easy, but it's certainly possible. Personally I happen to think it's also a good thing for a country to have.

Free healthcare countries:
1582524784393.png
More info here:

 

Bobbin

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Since it looks like the main alternative to Donald Trump is a self-styled "Democratic Socialist", I thought it would be interesting to have a thread discussing what the "Democratic" part actually means, since the socialism seems to cause great confusion.

Does the Democratic part mean Democracy in the form of a liberal democracy where individual rights are held sacrosanct, or is it simply mean Democracy in the form of majoritarianism?
Perhaps as long as the concept of a country remains static in terms of borders, you're really only serving the governing power that arbitrarily considers its borders theirs with no care for the private ownership of its inhabitants. Therefore it is only "majority rules to serve the government".

If it were truly individual rights, secession from an authority you don't wish to serve might be a more common occurrence. Don't know if realistic, and it may be a confusing concept in practice, but I'm just speaking in theoretical.

Maybe the anarchists have a fair point.
 

R13...

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According to wiki, the end (long term) goal of DemSoc is socialism. However, I've read and heard many proponents of DemSoc say nothing of socialism being an end goal, but rather to keep democracy around indefinitely. What they do want is some social policies included into the country, they want Medicare for all and cheaper, if not free education. Free healthcare and education isn't easy, but it's certainly possible. Personally I happen to think it's also a good thing for a country to have.

Free healthcare countries:
View attachment 789889
More info here:

Doesn't seem as scary as some Americans make it out to be. America can afford all of those and it would actually be of benefit when they take care of their less capable or well of brethren. It would seem it is just the rich poisoning minds with fears of incoming communism. The same rich who are getting fat off of the American tax payer in military and other spends.
 

Neuk_

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According to wiki, the end (long term) goal of DemSoc is socialism. However, I've read and heard many proponents of DemSoc say nothing of socialism being an end goal, but rather to keep democracy around indefinitely. What they do want is some social policies included into the country, they want Medicare for all and cheaper, if not free education. Free healthcare and education isn't easy, but it's certainly possible. Personally I happen to think it's also a good thing for a country to have.

Free healthcare countries:
Free healthcare, education, etc. does not exist in any form of society.
 

konfab

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According to wiki, the end (long term) goal of DemSoc is socialism. However, I've read and heard many proponents of DemSoc say nothing of socialism being an end goal, but rather to keep democracy around indefinitely. What they do want is some social policies included into the country, they want Medicare for all and cheaper, if not free education. Free healthcare and education isn't easy, but it's certainly possible. Personally I happen to think it's also a good thing for a country to have.


That isn't answering the question though. I am not interested in the socialism part.

I am interested in what exactly democratic socialists mean by democracy.
 

konfab

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Doesn't seem as scary as some Americans make it out to be. America can afford all of those and it would actually be of benefit when they take care of their less capable or well of brethren. It would seem it is just the rich poisoning minds with fears of incoming communism. The same rich who are getting fat off of the American tax payer in military and other spends.
I don't want to get into a debate on how stupid/grand socialism is.
That has been discussed ad-nausium in other threads.
 

konfab

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Perhaps as long as the concept of a country remains static in terms of borders, you're really only serving the governing power that arbitrarily considers its borders theirs with no care for the private ownership of its inhabitants. Therefore it is only "majority rules to serve the government".

If it were truly individual rights, secession from an authority you don't wish to serve might be a more common occurrence. Don't know if realistic, and it may be a confusing concept in practice, but I'm just speaking in theoretical.

Maybe the anarchists have a fair point.
The anarchists have a fair point indeed. However they have made the mistake of ignoring human behaviour. Specifically, how do you enforce individual rights equally? All that will happen is that people will form tribes where some form of individual rights will exist, but those rights immediately get squashed when said tribes disagree.

Locke argued this point in that people have to give up a bit of their freedom in order to protect the vast majority of their rights.
 

Prawnapple

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Free healthcare, education, etc. does not exist in any form of society.
Guess you didn't watch the vid.

That isn't answering the question though. I am not interested in the socialism part.

I am interested in what exactly democratic socialists mean by democracy.
Democracy doesn't change. Why should it mean what it doesn't mean currently?
 

greg0205

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Let's take a closer look at socialism in the US right now, shall we:

The US military is the largest, best funded socialist program in the world... On the taxpayer dime.

The police protect and serve... On the taxpayer dime.

Fire departments around the US will put out a fire in you home or rescue your cat from a tree... On the taxpayer dime.

If you send a Christmas card to your nana via the post office, you do it... On the taxpayer dime.

If you go to your nana for Christmas dinner, you get there on a road or highway built... On the taxpayer dime.

Man, I could do this all day...

Social security, Healthcare, the VA, public schools, the CDC, FEMA, the FDA, CBP, HHS, the IRS, the FBI, the Secret Service, the CIA, Congress, monuments, museums, parks, zoos, beaches, dams, sewers, the weather service, NPR, PBS, rail, the court system, public defenders, the prison system, the DOJ...

Also...

Donnie's bailout for farmers

... his golf trips

... and the house he lives in.
 

Prawnapple

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Is that it or is there more to add?
For example, if 95% population voted to enslave 5% of the population, would that still be a Democracy?
Yes. Unfortunately democracy is not exactly the most moral system, exactly for that reason.

Imagine an ancient society where cannibalism is legal. 48% vote against cannibalism's legality, 52% vote for it. That process of voting is democratic. According to democracy, it's a case of "tough luck" for the 48%. Don't like cannibalism? Just move elsewhere or keep fighting the good fight.
 
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konfab

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Yes. Unfortunately democracy is not exactly the most moral system, exactly for that reason.
Wrong.

What you were calling Democracy, I was calling majoritarianism (if you read in the OP, this is what I contrasted it with). Incidentally, if you want an example of what majoritarianism looks like, look no further than the ANC.
 

Moosedrool

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Wrong.

What you were calling Democracy, I was calling majoritarianism (if you read in the OP, this is what I contrasted it with). Incidentally, if you want an example of what majoritarianism looks like, look no further than the ANC.
Dh1jLkNVMAE5Qcc.jpg
 

Prawnapple

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Wrong.

What you were calling Democracy, I was calling majoritarianism (if you read in the OP, this is what I contrasted it with). Incidentally, if you want an example of what majoritarianism looks like, look no further than the ANC.
I'm not so sure about that. To each his own I guess.

So the Dems think the Reps are wrong on certain policies and vice versa. They vote democratically, the Reps or the Dems win and the other side goes, "REEEEEEEEEEEEEE". This is how democracy works. Not everyone wins. Enslaving a populace is not something that should be tabled to begin with so it's a bad example.

Just bear in mind the so-called democracy in America is not a true democracy, thanks to the Electoral College. Bernie, if I am not mistaken, wants to do away with the Electoral College.
 

Moosedrool

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I'm not so sure about that. To each his own I guess.

So the Dems think the Reps are wrong on certain policies and vice versa. They vote democratically, the Reps or the Dems win and the other side goes, "REEEEEEEEEEEEEE". This is how democracy works. Not everyone wins. Enslaving a populace is not something that should be tabled to begin with so it's a bad example.

Just bear in mind the so-called democracy in America is not a true democracy, thanks to the Electoral College. Bernie, if I am not mistaken, wants to do away with the Electoral College.
It's because you need to know what Liberty is:

This is Liberty:

Unknown.jpg
 
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