Democrats Have Impeached Trump in the House.

Status
Not open for further replies.

cerebus

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
49,114
And?

Superior as you claimed? So South Africans who are proud of their country, see them superior to let's say US/AUS/NZ/ENG and the likes? You have completely lost the plot :D

What in the hell are you talking about?
 

Moosedrool

Honorary Master
Joined
May 24, 2012
Messages
11,441
Webster's

Definition of nationalism

1: loyalty and devotion to a nationespecially : a sense of national consciousness (see CONSCIOUSNESS sense 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

TIL that the dictionary is 'libtard' propaganda.

That didn't say once that it's the belief in the inherent superiority of your nation.
 

Cray

Honorary Master
Joined
Oct 11, 2010
Messages
34,545
They are synonymous :D
Not quite synonyms...

From the Oxford dictionary.

patriotism

The quality of being patriotic; devotion to and vigorous support for one's country.

nationalism

Identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.
 

Pitbull

Verboten
Joined
Apr 8, 2006
Messages
64,307
Not quite synonyms...

From the Oxford dictionary.

patriotism

The quality of being patriotic; devotion to and vigorous support for one's country.

nationalism

Identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.

Even by those definitions the same thing. However, you quoted Orwell, so I guess you think more of Nationalism as aggressive patriotism.

No need to make new words or definitions... there are already such terms, things like Jingoism comes to mind. But then again, it can't be used to confuse the viewers or supporters of a set group into believing it's bad :D

But like I said, libtard propaganda at it's best!
 

cerebus

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
49,114
Even by those definitions the same thing.

Not the same thing. The big difference is this:
especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.

You could be very patriotic about your country because of the fact that your country does not act to the detriment of other countries. That would be patriotism without nationalism.
 

Cray

Honorary Master
Joined
Oct 11, 2010
Messages
34,545
But like I said, libtard propaganda at it's best!
Sigh...

You were doing so well at imitating a normal human being willing to have a decent discussion and then your natural tendencies re-asserted themselves - 5/10 for effort....
 

cerebus

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
49,114
Exalting is SUPERIOR now? :D

You're reaching... are you even English?

Yes exaltation is superiority.

exaltation
the act of raising someone or something in importance


Something that is exalted is by definition superior
 

Pitbull

Verboten
Joined
Apr 8, 2006
Messages
64,307
Not the same thing. The big difference is this:


You could be very patriotic about your country because of the fact that your country does not act to the detriment of other countries. That would be patriotism without nationalism.

And Nationalism including Superiority is Jingoism.

We can do this all day long. Nationalism is not a bad thing, and synonymous with Patriotism. Just because you don't want it to be doesn't make it so once again. Trying to dilute meanings to fit a narrative doesn't make it any different.
 

Pitbull

Verboten
Joined
Apr 8, 2006
Messages
64,307
Sigh...

You were doing so well at imitating a normal human being willing to have a decent discussion and then your natural tendencies re-asserted themselves - 5/10 for effort....

I am though, now that you realized you are confusing Nationalism with Jingoism you try and run. But that's ok...
 

konfab

Honorary Master
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
36,118
Not quite synonyms...

From the Oxford dictionary.

patriotism

The quality of being patriotic; devotion to and vigorous support for one's country.

nationalism

Identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.
That definition is pretty vague. As you haven't really defined what a nation actually means and is.

It is a complex thing to look at, so if you want to look at what I think is a pretty good definition:
Although the term “nationalism” has a variety of meanings, it centrally encompasses the two phenomena noted at the outset: (1) the attitude that the members of a nation have when they care about their identity as members of that nation and (2) the actions that the members of a nation take in seeking to achieve (or sustain) some form of political sovereignty (see for example, Nielsen 1998–9, 9). Each of these aspects requires elaboration. (1) raises questions about the concept of a nation or national identity, about what it is to belong to a nation, and about how much one ought to care about one's nation. Nations and national identity may be defined in terms of common origin, ethnicity, or cultural ties, and while an individual's membership in the nation is often regarded as involuntary, it is sometimes regarded as voluntary. The degree of care for one's nation that nationalists require is often, but not always, taken to be very high: according to such views, the claims of one's nation take precedence over rival contenders for authority and loyalty (see Berlin 1979, Smith 1991, Levy 2000, and the discussion in Gans 2003; for a more extreme characterization see the opening pages of Crosby 2005, and for a recent rich and interesting discussions of nationalist attitudes see Yack 2012).

(2) raises questions about whether sovereignty requires the acquisition of full statehood with complete authority over domestic and international affairs, or whether something less than statehood suffices. Although sovereignty is often taken to mean full statehood (Gellner 1983, ch. 1; for discussion of Gellner's views see Meadwell 2012, 2014, and papers in Malesevic and Hugarard 2007), possible exceptions have been recognized (Miller 1992 (87), and Miller 2000). Some authors even defend an anarchist version of patriotism-moderate nationalism foreshadowed by Bakunin (see Robert Sparrow, “For the Union Makes Us Strong: Anarchism and Patriotism”, in Primoratz and Pavkovic 2007).

Despite these definitional worries, there is a fair amount of agreement about the historically paradigmatic form of nationalism. It typically features the supremacy of the nation's claims over other claims to individual allegiance and full sovereignty as the persistent aim of its political program. Territorial sovereignty has traditionally been seen as a defining element of state power and essential for nationhood. It was extolled in classic modern works by Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau and is returning to center stage in the debate, though philosophers are now more skeptical (see below). Issues surrounding the control of the movement of money and people (in particular immigration) and the resource rights implied in territorial sovereignty make the topic politically center in the age of globalization and philosophically interesting for nationalists and anti-nationalists alike.

The territorial state as political unit is seen by nationalists as centrally ‘belonging’ to one ethnic-cultural group and as actively charged with protecting and promulgating its traditions. This view is exemplified by the classical, “revivalist” nationalism that was most prominent in the 19th century in Europe and Latin America. This classical nationalism later spread across the world and still marks many contemporary nationalisms.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nationalism/#WhaNat

This is a pretty solid definition IMO.

So to make an interesting argument, would the EU be nationalistic if they don't create a free trade agreement with the UK because it won't be for the betterment of their member states? The anti-nationalist position would be free trade with anyone who wants to trade (which is my position btw).

This is why Cerberus had a massive Freudian slip when he said:
In this case the family is the nation.

The EU views the UK leaving it as a rebellious teenager who needs punishment. Therefore we are going to show our dominance by putting massive tariffs on them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top