Democrats Have Impeached Trump in the House.

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konfab

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buka001 said:
I have not read much Orwell. Only Animal Farm to be honest.

So before you come back to me with a Aha gotcha on my view on that statement from Orewell, I will go read up on what he said, to understand the context more.

But in isolation, without context to anything he was referring to, yes.

Patriotism is, for me, love and pride for your country.

Nationalism, has the same sort of pride, but if that comes at the cost of other countries or persons, that pride is still maintained, then its Nationalism.
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I don't think that is correct though.

I actually think Patriotism is more tied to the actions rather than the belonging. In other words, a patriot would die for their country defending it from others. Which is at the cost of themselves.

Nationalism for me simply states that people want to belong to a nation of people, and that nation has some value to them. It says buggerall about what you intend to do to people who are not in your nation.
 
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Tokolotshe

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cerebus said:
No, it's 'making reparations based on the colour of people's skin' at the cost of other people's skins. That's the argument. If your family stole something from your neighbours, and the government forced you to give back what was stolen, your family isn't being targeted or discriminated against.
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I have posted a bit here about my family going back to the late 1800's. Grandma lost siblings in a concentration camp. She later married, they started off from zilch but my grandpa soon passed away leaving her with 4 kids. She washed bottles in a cool drink factory to feed her family. My dad had to leave school early like his brothers and sister. He later did matric after hours. All property was legally purchased, where title deeds in the case of land is available back way into the 1800's. Nothing stolen.

What now. Why can't I go tender at some guavamint (sorry for those always seeking a reason to be offended, but it's appropriate and actually a more flattering term as the alternatives) department without some dude (that has long since been advantaged, looking at his cars, properties, business) milking the system as a middle man? Right now I have solutions that would benefit the country, but my skin is the wrong colour. So suffer all those people I voted to see as equals back in the early 90's, they need to remain serfs to the new hoi poloi.

I'm not the only one in this boat.

Boet, you need to change your brand of kool aid.
 
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cerebus

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Sollie said:
I have posted a bit here about my family going back to the late 1800's. Grandma lost siblings in a concentration camp. She late rmarried, they started off from zilch but my grandpa soon passed away leavign her with 4 kids. She washed bottles in a cool drink factory to feed her family. My dad had to leave school early like his brothers and sister. He later did matric after hours. All property was legally purchased, where title deeds in the case of land is available back way into the 1800's. Nothing stolen.

What now. Why can't I go tender at some guavamint (sorry for those always seeking a reason to be offended, but it's appropriate and actually a more flattering term as the alternatives) department without some dude (that has long since been advantaged, looking at his cars, properties, business) milking the system as a middle man? Right now I have solutions that would benefit the country, but my skin is the wrong colour. So suffer all those people I voted to see as equals back in the early 90's, they need to remain serfs to the new hoi poloi.

I'm not the only one in this boat.

Boet, you need to change your brand of kool aid.
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Boet, I never said AA is a great system, or uncorrupted, or anything like that. I just said, going right back to the beginning of my conversation with konfab when he tried to claim that Trump wasn't racist because he's doing away with AA, that AA is not racist because it is based on reparations, not on some idea of racial inferiority.
 
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buka001

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konfab said:
That puts the entire identity politics movement solidly into the racial nationalist camp.

That isn't what Trump is though, especially on the race side where he has been very proud of the fact that black people are having less unemployment.
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I guess when I see Trump speak of black unemployment, I see a guy looking for black votes.

Has there been specific policies, capital investment or anything of particular that Trump did to directly improve the unemployment figures for black people, or is it just a function of the fact that unemployment as a whole has been on the decline since Obama has been in office.

What measures my view is Trump's history. Exclusion of black people from apartments.
His militant campaign against the Central Park 5. These actions outweigh his words far more.

It is like how when he campaigned he was all I am the most LGBTI friendly guy ever and then boom bans transgender people from serving in the military. Words vs actions.
 
My_King

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konfab said:
Orwell's definitions fail if you carefully think about it.

The problem is that you need power in order to defend yourself. Which makes Patriotism implicitly require the desire of power as well.

Do you think Israel would have existed as long as it has if it didn't have the means (which is what power is in this sense) to defend itself?
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All I know that in 1967, when you see your enemies increasing their military troops on the border you don`t wait to be klapped, you klap first.
 
AlmightyBender

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konfab said:
I disagree.
Nationalism bad when you have huge amounts of state power attached to it. The end result is what you would call Jingoism.

Things like individual rights are there to prevent the state from attaching power to a specific group. Something like equality before the law is an example of such a right that gets rid of the bad aspects of nationalism. Freedom of speech is another. However when you have individual rights like freedom of association, it also encourages the more positive type.

To bring this back to affirmative action:

People who think they can diminish individual rights without opening the door to the bad types of nationalism(and I would add communism under this as well as "revolutionaries" effectively behave like an ethnic group), are deluded. If you discriminate against one group(or nation) of people to benefit another (for whatever reason) it add state power to one group and takes it away from another.
It is why you had the Messiah of Property rights (Rama****a) walk up in Parliament and tell everyone that EWC is necessary because our people are suffering.


https://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/...e-as-it-really-shapes-our-identity-ramaphosa/
He is very clearly stating that white people are not real South Africans, and thus they can have their property taken away from them for any reason.

To bring this to Orwell. His concept of Patriotism and Nationalism is wrong for this reason, it is why Orania want to be in charge of their own little state. Because that would mean they would have the power to defend themselves against another nation that seeks to destroy them.

Individual rights issue provides the only peaceful solution to this conundrum. Cyril Ramaphosa and his ilk are free to build a black Azania nation, so long as they don't infringe on the rights of other people.
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Appreciate you going into detail. Some interesting points that helped me understand your view better.
 
Unhappy438

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Pitbull said:
Don't need one. Trump has been acquitted on all charges as expected. So now just more libtard tears for a few weeks. Then Election followed by another 4 years of sweet libtard tears... beautiful, can't wait.
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Not sure wtf this has got to do with the conversation. Oh wow, Trump has been acquitted, im so surprised said no one ever.
 
konfab

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buka001 said:
I guess when I see Trump speak of black unemployment, I see a guy looking for black votes.
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Well I see someone who thinks that black people have had it rough in the US, and that them having less unemployment is a good thing.


buka001 said:
Has there been specific policies, capital investment or anything of particular that Trump did to directly improve the unemployment figures for black people, or is it just a function of the fact that unemployment as a whole has been on the decline since Obama has been in office.
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A rising tide rises all boats. Doing good things for the economy is good for everyone. This is something that the left cannot understand. For them, it is a zero sum game. If you want to help black people, it has to be at the cost of white people elsewise it isn't "reparations".

buka001 said:
It is like how when he campaigned he was all I am the most LGBTI friendly guy ever and then boom bans transgender people from serving in the military. Words vs actions.
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It isn't a ban.

If you read what it does, it is pretty reasonable. It simply states that you have to serve in the unit of your biological sex. This makes sense as the US military by necessity is somewhat segregated by sex because of the physical differences between men and woman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans...United_States_military#Action_by_Donald_Trump

The only people who are outright banned from joining the military are people who have had the surgery, which makes a lot of sense as it is the equivalent of a serious medical condition (I don't recommend it, but have a look what transgender woman have to do to themselves in order to keep their fancy new vagina from closing up, it isn't pretty).

https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/disqualifiers-medical-conditions.html

If you see, even things like asthma are on the list, which would exclude me.

For everyone else, you need to show that you are stable and are going to join as their biological sex.

In effect, they are treating transgender people the same as everyone else.
 
cerebus

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It's a dead heat between Sanders and Buttigieg in Iowa. Sanders is picking up a lot of delegates in the satellite caucuses
 
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Tokolotshe

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buka001 said:
How many books on Hitler have you read?

Have you read his own book?

Come back to me when you are all done.

You can be a fascist and a nationalist. Using a fascist agenda to drive Nationalism is what he did.

Hence why I said it can get bad, when you get extremists like Hitler who drive it.
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There is your problem. In fact, if we are honest, also why we are on pg 149 of this thread.
 
C4Cat

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konfab said:
That isn't what Trump is though, especially on the race side where he has been very proud of the fact that black people are having less unemployment.
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This is what Trump and his supporters are. He's only proud of less unemployment among minorities because it means he's 'winning' against the snowflake sjw libtard democrats, and can mock them and boast how great he is. Remember: use his mental energy either in boosting or in denigrating

Tell me this isn't Trump to a tee:
Obsession. As nearly as possible, no nationalist ever thinks, talks, or writes about anything except the superiority of his own power unit. It is difficult if not impossible for any nationalist to conceal his allegiance. The smallest slur upon his own unit, or any implied praise of a rival organization, fills him with uneasiness which he can only relieve by making some sharp retort. If the chosen unit is an actual country, such as Ireland or India, he will generally claim superiority for it not only in military power and political virtue, but in art, literature, sport, structure of the language, the physical beauty of the inhabitants, and perhaps even in climate, scenery and cooking.
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buka001

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konfab said:
Well I see someone who thinks that black people have had it rough in the US, and that them having less unemployment is a good thing.



A rising tide rises all boats. Doing good things for the economy is good for everyone. This is something that the left cannot understand. For them, it is a zero sum game. If you want to help black people, it has to be at the cost of white people elsewise it isn't "reparations".


It isn't a ban.

If you read what it does, it is pretty reasonable. It simply states that you have to serve in the unit of your biological sex. This makes sense as the US military by necessity is somewhat segregated by sex because of the physical differences between men and woman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans...United_States_military#Action_by_Donald_Trump

The only people who are outright banned from joining the military are people who have had the surgery, which makes a lot of sense as it is the equivalent of a serious medical condition (I don't recommend it, but have a look what transgender woman have to do to themselves in order to keep their fancy new vagina from closing up, it isn't pretty).

https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/disqualifiers-medical-conditions.html

If you see, even things like asthma are on the list, which would exclude me.

For everyone else, you need to show that you are stable and are going to join as their biological sex.

In effect, they are treating transgender people the same as everyone else.
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Somehow the UK military and others have managed to survive this onslaught ...
 
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